Converted-to-Black-Paint Leica M's, show 'em here!
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Harry Lime
Practitioner
In the US www.acmeplating.com will strip the chrome and nickel for a reasonable price. They did a nice job with my M4.
What are you painters using as a primer on the exposed brass?
1) Diluted acid
2) White vinegar
3) Etching primer (black)
Looking at genuine black paint bodies it's difficult to exactly nail down what they did.
Some appear to have an undercoat of black etching primer. In this case you get black on black wear, before it reaches the brass. The black enamel will wear off faster than the black primer. It looks a little like the layers on a piece of slate.
Some have a semi transparent primer with a greenish tint under the black enamel.
The modern BP MP and custom jobs supposedly use an automotive paint. It may be self etching.
Others appear to have no primer at all under the enamel. I've heard from several sources that some of the paint jobs that Leica did on these cameras are pretty horrendous and wore off very quickly. But then again BP cameras were mostly purchased by professionals who didn't mind the wear.
The earliest ones may use black shellack? I think pre-war LTM bodies are shellack, but I could be wrong.
What are you painters using as a primer on the exposed brass?
1) Diluted acid
2) White vinegar
3) Etching primer (black)
Looking at genuine black paint bodies it's difficult to exactly nail down what they did.
Some appear to have an undercoat of black etching primer. In this case you get black on black wear, before it reaches the brass. The black enamel will wear off faster than the black primer. It looks a little like the layers on a piece of slate.
Some have a semi transparent primer with a greenish tint under the black enamel.
The modern BP MP and custom jobs supposedly use an automotive paint. It may be self etching.
Others appear to have no primer at all under the enamel. I've heard from several sources that some of the paint jobs that Leica did on these cameras are pretty horrendous and wore off very quickly. But then again BP cameras were mostly purchased by professionals who didn't mind the wear.
The earliest ones may use black shellack? I think pre-war LTM bodies are shellack, but I could be wrong.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I wonder if the 'K' on the serialnumber tag stands for "Kältefest" or winterized.
The red specks are interesting. I wonder if it's a primer. In the last picture looking at the rewind knob it almost looks like it is under the black paint. The Germans did use a reddish primer on metal. At the end of the war they were running low on paint and some tanks left the factories in a red brown primer, instead of the typical yellowish tone. The camo pattern of green and brown was sprayed right on it.
It also reminds me of the red lead paint you see in a lot of old buildings. It was used as a primer or actual paint in high wear areas like floors. But I have no idea if it has any etching properties.
It also looks like red wax, but that makes almost no sense...
V-12
Well-known
It is unlikely, to say the least, that Leica used a furniture finish on the pre-war cameras.
I remember the furore when the MP was first released and Leica used the word 'lacquer' to describe the black finish. Of course what they meant was 'black paint', the word lacquer is used in German to describe paint, it is simply a 'finish' not a specific type of finish. Some people were up in arms and genuinely thought the black lacquer was going to be the same as 'japanning', a black finish similar to shellac varnish. This would of course flake off almost immediately, we were told. It took some lengthy discussions across many forums before it all calmed down and the concensus was that the European use of the word 'lacquer' in this sense did in fact mean paint.
The issue is further confused on the USA side of the pond because the age old industrial nitrocellulose paint used on cars was also called either paint or lacquer. Fender guitars were lacquered, a '56 T'bird was painted, but the very same DuPont 'Fiesta Red' was used on both. So you see that down the years the same product could start to sound like two different things. And that's not even starting on the word 'enamel'.
As nitrocellulose paint was around and used in industrial finishing long before Leitz started to make Leica's it is more than likely this is what was used, but it may have been called 'lacquer', 'paint', or 'enamel', depending largely on the part of the world you come from.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Oops. You are correct. I meant 'lacquer'.
Speaking of lacquer, is it true that it is made from black beetles or at least it used to be?
I'm pretty sure that there has to be a synthetic lacquer variant.
Micro-tools sells a fine grained black enamel for camera restoration. I'm going to order a bottle and do some experiments, before I commit to painting my M4.
Mark C
Well-known
I've got to quit looking here; you guys are driving me crazy with these pretty cameras.
Oddly, I've owned 2 M4 Mots and a black M4 over the years and always end up selling them. I'd love to have them back now for double what I sold them for, but actually didn't really get any extra enjoyment out of them when I had them. I used to hate the black ano finish, but it has grown on me lately. Very utilitarian and understated; seems very appropriate for a working tool.
Still ...
Oddly, I've owned 2 M4 Mots and a black M4 over the years and always end up selling them. I'd love to have them back now for double what I sold them for, but actually didn't really get any extra enjoyment out of them when I had them. I used to hate the black ano finish, but it has grown on me lately. Very utilitarian and understated; seems very appropriate for a working tool.
Still ...
V-12
Well-known
Lacquer is derived from a tree, and is called varnish in most of the world, combined with pigment it becomes paint. Shellac on the other hand is made from the secretions of the Lac beetle, which is browny red in colour. So no black beetle's were harmed. I guess it is unfortunate that the three letters 'lac' appear in each word.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I was browsing through some old catalogs on the Westlicht site looking at BP cameras.
It is impressive just how bad the paint jobs are on the original BP bodies. Even the 'mint' in the box bodies have minor brassing and sometimes there is orange-peeling (bubbling). The paint looks like it will chip, if you look at it cockeyed.
Some of the heavily worn ones, the ones where most of the top plate is brass, look like there wasn't even a primer undercoat. The brass on these looks fairly coarse. Perhaps Leica used a diluted acid bath or white vinegar (yes, vinegar) to pit the brass for the paint to stick.
Others very obviously have a primer undercoating and those are mostly brassed on the edges..
I'm thinking I will give my M4 a white vinegar bath to prime the surface. Scalecoat type 1 paint appears to be self-etching and can be baked. Seems to stand up to wear quite well. Probably better than most original BP bodies...
It is impressive just how bad the paint jobs are on the original BP bodies. Even the 'mint' in the box bodies have minor brassing and sometimes there is orange-peeling (bubbling). The paint looks like it will chip, if you look at it cockeyed.
Some of the heavily worn ones, the ones where most of the top plate is brass, look like there wasn't even a primer undercoat. The brass on these looks fairly coarse. Perhaps Leica used a diluted acid bath or white vinegar (yes, vinegar) to pit the brass for the paint to stick.
Others very obviously have a primer undercoating and those are mostly brassed on the edges..
I'm thinking I will give my M4 a white vinegar bath to prime the surface. Scalecoat type 1 paint appears to be self-etching and can be baked. Seems to stand up to wear quite well. Probably better than most original BP bodies...
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Vincent.G
Well-known
Interesting Harry!
He taped up the frame counter window and added a M2 frame counter and chrome lever.
He taped up the frame counter window and added a M2 frame counter and chrome lever.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
THe camera that belonged to Fusco is an MP. So, the framecounter is correct. Basically it is a modified Leica M2 with Leicavit. It's looks like the small circular post that is next to the framecounter on a normal M2/MP has gone missing and he put a piece of tape over the hole. You can see that little post on DDD camera next the counter disk. Very strange indeed.
Vincent.G
Well-known
Thanks Harry. So it is an MP! Not a M2.
I am also curious why he replaced the advance lever to a chrome one since he used a Leicavit.
I am also curious why he replaced the advance lever to a chrome one since he used a Leicavit.
mmbma
Member
THis is a factory repaint M2, repainted in 1980's, used through several wars~
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Nice M2...
I like the circular wipe mark on the top plate, next to the rewind knob.
Glad to see everyone made it back in one piece
I like the circular wipe mark on the top plate, next to the rewind knob.
Glad to see everyone made it back in one piece
jody36
Well-known
THis is a factory repaint M2, repainted in 1980's, used through several wars~
best looking of bunch to me
yesaroos
Established
Not converted yet, this is a WIP from my M2 which I've done in my spare time.. I use powder coating/electrolytic paint..
The final coat result get little thick in some engraving, make the text not properly pronounced.. 🙁
The final coat result get little thick in some engraving, make the text not properly pronounced.. 🙁
athland
Newbie
there are my leica m3, one of them was modified to use the leicavit mp with m2's counter.
both of them was repainted at 30% glossy level.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55396130@N04/16047895208/
both of them was repainted at 30% glossy level.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/55396130@N04/16047895208/
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yesaroos
Established
I've done it.. she's just converted 😎
I strip the timer & preview lever, cut the 'vampire tooth', clean the RF, re-skinned with Grip-Tac like material, implant new shutter from salvaged Canon F1.. so far, the shutter speed sounds good to ear.. unfortunately, the RF patch still can't align well on infinity and the vertical adjustment cover screw is MIA :bang:
Not perfect, but good enough for me 😱
I strip the timer & preview lever, cut the 'vampire tooth', clean the RF, re-skinned with Grip-Tac like material, implant new shutter from salvaged Canon F1.. so far, the shutter speed sounds good to ear.. unfortunately, the RF patch still can't align well on infinity and the vertical adjustment cover screw is MIA :bang:
Not perfect, but good enough for me 😱
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