Cosina Voigtlander Bessa digital camera?

[Chrischung]

It is found an information about the new digital camera developed by Cosina and Epson with Bessa R original model.

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0213/pma05.htm

Great news for Leica/CV users and collectors!

Chris

 

[GeneW]

This is the 'sleeper' of PMA. Very little real info yet -- but it looks exciting.

Lots of speculation going on about what the sensor size will be, what crop factor (e.g. 1.5x?) etc. But a good digital rangefinder that could take M lenses and give a review/histogram display -- what a concept camera. Puts the heat on Leica with their announced future digital M.

The only problem I foresee is the crop factor. RF shooting tends to be wide angle. You need ultra wide angle lenses on a digital to get moderate wide angle after the crop factor. In this world, a 28mm lens factors to 'normal'.

Can't wait for more info.

Gene

 

[lars]

Puts the heat on Leica with their announced future digital M.

I think it's the other way around. Leica probably caught wind of this last month and decided that they had better get serious about putting money into digital development. It looks pretty bad for them to keep saying it can't be done when Epson and Cosina have a prototype on display at PMA.

...lars

 

[GeneW]

I think it's the other way around. Leica probably caught wind of this last month and decided that they had better get serious about putting money into digital development. It looks pretty bad for them to keep saying it can't be done when Epson and Cosina have a prototype on display at PMA.

...lars

I think we're saying the same thing, Lars. The 'their' in my sentence refers to Leica.

Gene

 

[Scarpia]

Can't wait for my wife to get home from a shopping trip as she can translate the Japanese for me.
Kurt M.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

lars, gene, you're saying the same thing.

I had read about this in the Leica Forum at photo.net... and someone remarked about the weirdness of a digital camera with a film advance lever on top. Nostalgic detail perhaps?

 

[Chrischung]

There are some internet translator to translate the Japanese to English or other language. I've translated those message with
http://w3.systranlinks.com/systran/cgi

I wish the new technology could make the CCD same size as 35mm film size. The photo on the web is a prototype and the film advance lever and rewind machanism would be eliminated later.

 

[Doug]

Nostalgic for sure, Francisco, and probably useful as well. We may be so accustomed to thinking of that thing as a film-wind-lever that we forget it also cocks the shutter. 🙂

 

[Chrischung]

Doug may right. But, the digital camera may not require shutter curtains for rangefinders.
Chris

 

[lars]

Doug may right. But, the digital camera may not require shutter curtains for rangefinders.
Chris

I read somewhere that the larger sensors use a system where by they can't be exposed to light while xferring data or something to that effect. That is why DSLRs still have shutters where as the P&S digicams do not.

As for my comment on the Leica getting the pressure put on them, it was a chicken and egg comment. I inferred from Gene's comment that he meant that Epson/CV's prototype stole the thunder from Leica's announcement last week. In fact, I think it is the other way around. I think Leica was trying to weaken the Epson/CV prototype's impact by making a pre-emptive strike in announcing that they would release a digital M in the future.

Small difference, I know. 😀

...lars

 

[Chrischung]

It is a good example of completition!
For a very long time, M3 evolve into M6 needs 30 years and the improvement is very limited. The techology of M6 is far behind Minolta CLE. The CV/Epson prototype pushes Leica to improve her product quickly upto New Century standard.

 

[marcof]

Speculation on the sensor...
a foveon maybe???

it certainly looks intruiging, I've been wanting a digital RF ever since I traded my Bronica RF645 for a nikon D100 🙂

(oh yeah, did I mention I'm new here 🙂)

 

[bmattock]

Markof,

Welcome - I like the way you think! I have read recently that Foveon is working on a new sensor for a 'compact camera' and that Sigma has denied that it is for them. Wouldn't that be interesting? I would love to see it. Oh yes.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

PS - Art may be overrated, but broken toys are more fun.

 

[GeneW]

I have read recently that Foveon is working on a new sensor for a 'compact camera' and that Sigma has denied that it is for them. Wouldn't that be interesting? I would love to see it. Oh yes.

Me too. But it looks as if the compact camera with Foveon is a Polaroid-branded P&S digital:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp

In my dream of dreams, the CV digital RF would have a Canon CMOS sensor (the one in the Digital Rebel and the 10D) with its extremely low noise levels and good DR. But I don't think that's going to happen.

Gene

 

[marcof]

Come to think of it, it might as well become a "Rollei RF35 digital" .. looks like that has the same body..

well, let's see..
4/3rds is out of the question..
foveon might still be "in", regardless of the polaroid camera
sony.. well.. the new 8mp sony CCD would be a viable option.. but the multiplier factor would be huge...
fuji superCCD 4th gen.. I can only say yes! .. maybe..
canon CMOS: out, canon only
nikon LBCAST: out, nikon only
Fillfactory CMOS: viable, but very costly option (used in the new Kodak DCS PRo/n).. but full frame
Philips CCD as used in the contax ND .. hmm, out?

But maybe epson has developed their own super-microlense supported CCD/CMOS sensor..

I just read matsu****a have developed a new sensor as well.. <-- edit: heh, censoring? matsushi-ta aka panasonic, but you probably figured that out..

bah, too many options, let's wait until 2nd half of march, there should be more info available by then (according to the site).

 

[Doug]

Yes, interesting that this camera body has been sold as a Cosina, a Voigtlander, a Rollei, and now an Epson! Plus as an SLR.

But, I have not seen anyone comment upon the odd proportions of the Epson top cover, in comparison with the Bessa R2... The shutter dial has been moved over around the release button, and the guage unit seems not to be exactly where the shutter dial was... but further over. That whole lower-level deck of the top cover is longer, and the upper-level deck is shorter than the R2, odd looking.

Now if you can display pics of both cameras together on your screen, you'll see that the RF windows have clearly been moved leftward (from the user point of view). I had thought at first maybe the RF baseline was shorter, but no; all the wondows were moved. The whole RF mechanism has been moved over into the space previously occupied by the rewind knob and shaft.

 

[marcof]

pretty much speculation on the specs:
http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtbessadigital.htm

 

[Scott]

Leica sensor M vs. Cosina-Epson sensor

Leica sensor M vs. Cosina-Epson sensor

I was reading recently on the Leica website, that they figure they will need a sensor of at least 10 megapixels in order to have the resolution needed for Leica lenses in a M body camera. And they further say that the R digital is proceeding as expected and that the M digital body is developing alongside that system. Makes you wonder what will be the sensor size in the Cosina-Epson venture. Hard to believe it will be at least 10 megapixels and therefore if it is not, is it worth waiting for the Leica M digital in order to get the finest resolution for your Leica lenses. Or is this all just hype??

 

[lars]

Re: Leica sensor M vs. Cosina-Epson sensor

Re: Leica sensor M vs. Cosina-Epson sensor

I was reading recently on the Leica website, that they figure they will need a sensor of at least 10 megapixels in order to have the resolution needed for Leica lenses in a M body camera. And they further say that the R digital is proceeding as expected and that the M digital body is developing alongside that system. Makes you wonder what will be the sensor size in the Cosina-Epson venture. Hard to believe it will be at least 10 megapixels and therefore if it is not, is it worth waiting for the Leica M digital in order to get the finest resolution for your Leica lenses. Or is this all just hype??

It all depends on YOUR requirements. Lots of working photographers are doing fine using 6MP DSLRs and making 11x14 prints w/o problems. In any case, a 10MP camera from Leica would be incredibly expensive. The Canon 1Ds (11.1MP) currently sells for around USD$7000-8000. For that much, I'd rather stay with film or accept a lower resolution. I rarely make 8x10s, let alone 11x14s. The more pressing question is the crop factor and increased DoF common to digital sensors smaller than 35mm film format. That might be a greater issue than the resolution. But at the price savings of a lower res. camera, you could easily buy a wider lens, although the DoF issue would remain.

BTW, pixel count isn't everything. You can buy prosumer grade digital cameras like the Minolta A2, Sony 828 and Canon Pro-1 which have 8MP sensors. However, because they are small sensors (smaller than the APS-size sensors found in the less expensive digital SLRs), they have signal noise problems when you shoot at higher ISOs. And by high, I mean 400ISO and up. A good number of digital sensors also exhibit purple fringing under certain conditions. From what I've read (no personal experience), the 5MP sensors are less prone to the noise that 8MP sensors are, simply because they are less densely packed onto the chip.

The best thing to do when buying a digital camera is to bring the appropriate media card with you to the store, and try out the cameras by writing to your card. Then view the results at home.



...lars

 

[Scott]

It all depends on YOUR requirements. Lots of working photographers are doing fine using 6MP DSLRs and making 11x14 prints w/o problems. In any case, a 10MP camera from Leica would be incredibly expensive. The Canon 1Ds (11.1MP) currently sells for around USD$7000-8000. For that much, I'd rather stay with film or accept a lower resolution. I rarely make 8x10s, let alone 11x14s. The more pressing question is the crop factor and increased DoF common to digital sensors smaller than 35mm film format. That might be a greater issue than the resolution. But at the price savings of a lower res. camera, you could easily buy a wider lens, although the DoF issue would remain.

BTW, pixel count isn't everything. You can buy prosumer grade digital cameras like the Minolta A2, Sony 828 and Canon Pro-1 which have 8MP sensors. However, because they are small sensors (smaller than the APS-size sensors found in the less expensive digital SLRs), they have signal noise problems when you shoot at higher ISOs. And by high, I mean 400ISO and up. A good number of digital sensors also exhibit purple fringing under certain conditions. From what I've read (no personal experience), the 5MP sensors are less prone to the noise that 8MP sensors are, simply because they are less densely packed onto the chip.

The best thing to do when buying a digital camera is to bring the appropriate media card with you to the store, and try out the cameras by writing to your card. Then view the results at home.


Lars:

I agree with your note above that pixel count is not everything. I certainly would not require 10 megapixel, I am using 4 and 6.3 currently and that is plenty for my needs. What I thought was interesting about Leica's comments, was that in order to get that "Leica glass quality" that is so legendary, they are looking at 10 megapixels at least for the m digital body. Will be interesting to see what happens between the Cosina Epson venture and finally Leica's kick at the cat when they brings theirs out and then compare quality between both bodies with Leica glass!