Could the M8 become a "classic?"

[raid]

While there's lots of passion and enthusiasm for the M8 on RFF and other Leica forums, I think in other more generalized photo forums you see the same or more passion displayed for the D700. Many still in use by professionals on a daily basis. The only rival for this love and use the D700 continues to stir is the D3.

Lots more D700s were originally sold than M8s. Lots more D700s still in service. M8 was an experiment that kinda/sorta worked. D700 was a well thought out camera that you could use to drive nails, anchor a boat and still use afterwards. Leica got it together later, in my opinion, especially with the Monchrome models but Leica is so expensive it's a niche product not a camera brand in constant use among a throng of professionals.

To be clear about it, I'm no professional but I have three D700s and among the several other newer models of Nikons I've owned and used, I still prefer using those D700s for most of my photos. It was the camera that made me understand that megapixels alone doesn't mean squat to the quality of photos. So I'm kinda prejudiced in favor of this particular camera model.

I need to get my D700 fixed. The card reader pins may have gotten broken.

 

[boojum]

Which APSC or larger camera doesnât have great IQ since the M8 was released?

I have an A7M III which I really like a lot. I hang either the Sony/Zeiss 55mm f/1.8 or the Sony 24 - 240 on it, usually the zoom. The color, detail, shading and so on are all good. But the M8.2 gives me the image I prefer when the conditions are right.

Regard: https://flickr.com/photos/sandynoyes/albums/72157716739415061

 

[Pál_K]

If a camera has produced good images for you and you enjoy that camera, it really doesn’t matter what other people think of it or call it.

 

[former member]

The M8 does a good job with Infrared.

 

[boojum]

If a camera has produced good images for you and you enjoy that camera, it really doesn’t matter what other people think of it or call it.

It does to other people. AFAIAC if I am pleased that's what matters. I buy the gear I want, not what others want, for a number of reasons. Do folks so much crave approval that they shape their camera purchases by this? That's pitiful behavior. While we are all influenced by peer pressures it is the degree that counts. It also varies by subject. Peer pressure discourages murder, thankfully.

 

[Jason Schneider]

The unloved Leica M8 is an OK camera that performs better than its sullied reputation might suggest and it's a de facto landmark as the first digital Leica M. However a "classic" (a notoriously subjective honorific) it is not and never will be. Whether it will ever be collectible is another question, and my answer is maybe, but not anytime soon. The M8 is not analogous to the M5, which is big and somewhat klutzy and has pot metal body castings (yes!), but performs at the same level as the M4, M6, etc. and kind of grows on you as you use it, I don't think the M8 is a camera that grows on you--it is an artifact and a curiosity marking a particular stage in (I am now suppressing a barf) The Digital Revolution.

 

[maggieo]

FWIW, I've done some of my best work with an M8. No reason to think there's someone out there who will do the same thing.

 

[former member]

The Leica M8 is an engineering milestone. That's the phrase to use in the Digital Age, Very few "Classic" Digital anythings, just milestones as the next-great-thing comes along.

The M8 has three design flaws:
The compression scheme done to reduce write times for the SD card, at the expense of High-ISO performance; This can be corrected using the Button Dance.
IR leakage of 5%~10% in the IR range; corrected with use of external filters;
1.3x crop sensor required because of the short flange distance of the M-Mount. The CCD used did not undergo as much "thinning" as did that of the M9, and the M8 has a 50% higher saturation count.

The shutter is loud, but also gives 1/8000th top speed. Worth having.

My Kodak DCS200ir is also an engineering milestone. It's not a classic. Bought it (almost) 30 years ago.
Come to think of it, I have collected a lot of engineering milestones in 43 years working at a research lab.

 

[muser53]

In a word, no.

 

[boojum]

The Leica M8 is an engineering milestone. That's the phrase to use in the Digital Age, Very few "Classic" Digital anythings, just milestones as the next-great-thing comes along.

The M8 has three design flaws:
The compression scheme done to reduce write times for the SD card, at the expense of High-ISO performance; This can be corrected using the Button Dance.
IR leakage of 5%~10% in the IR range; corrected with use of external filters;
1.3x crop sensor required because of the short flange distance of the M-Mount. The CCD used did not undergo as much "thinning" as did that of the M9, and the M8 has a 50% higher saturation count.

The shutter is loud, but also gives 1/8000th top speed. Worth having.

My Kodak DCS200ir is also an engineering milestone. It's not a classic. Bought it (almost) 30 years ago.
Come to think of it, I have collected a lot of engineering milestones in 43 years working at a research lab.

It already is a classic. A classically mishandled project. Luckily the sensor and image processing software were farmed out. If Helmut and Lothar got their hands on that the camera would have been a total bust.

Let us examine how the folks who now own the camera market do it. First they make sure the damned thing works. This is done by testing. Lots of rigorous testing. After all when you are introducing something as a first for you it might want it to be wonderful. But the crew of propeller heads at Leitz did not thoroughly test this camera. Or worse, they did. You also make sure it is super well-constructed and has every thing possible to insure it works right. Then you bring it to market, fully tested and perfectly functioning and sell it at a loss. This is a proof of concept, too. You want those cameras to have little built-in sales resistance. You want folks out there clicking those shutters, even if they are poorly designed. Also you have a 100% support policy so no one can feel unhappy about their purchase. Complete and continuing support until all the bugs have been fixed. Until all the bugs have been fixed. You would think that Helmut and Lothar would have looked around to see how others are doing it. How others are doing it successfully. Just a wild-ass idea on my part. But they seemed to be unwilling to say they could use some help. In my family we call this Deutscher Dicke, thick-headed German. Or arrogant.

Being of German descent I can talk like this with little sense of censure from my Landsmann. I feel ashamed when I see things like the M8 project. This is not at all how I was raised to think about my heritage and the way of doing things. Grandma always said, "Es ist immer Deutscher Besser" or German is always better. She obviously did not buy an M8.

That said I do love my M8.2, warts and all and because of the two items Leitz had nothing to do with: the sensor and the software to process the image. I really like the image quality and its ability to present a convincing 3D image. And the colors and hues. I just love the images. In a way it is like a troublesome child. It is a problem to deal with, it has faults but under the right light it will give up some really wonderful images as does its younger brother, the M9.

As always, YMMV.

 

[Yokosuka Mike]

In a word, no.

In another word, yes.

Mike

 

[former member]

The IR leakage issue had to be known the second that the cover glass was chosen: the spectral response of the sensor is in the Kodak Data sheet.
The "Chaotic behavior" of the lossy compression scheme - a truly stupid decision to use it. There are very simple, computationally light lossless compression schemes that give about the same level of compression. Running differences would have worked, and could be implemented on the DSP chosen for the M8.The M8 came out in 2006. I'd been working with digital imaging for 25 years by then.

 

[RichC]

I bought an M8 new. My first and last Leica. Worst and most unreliable camera I've ever owned. In use it occasionally and randomly froze (and always if taking multiple shots), and I had to reboot it like a crap computer by taking out the battery and putting it in again! Then the shutter seized after a few months, after which the sensor went south! Leica repaired it under warranty - but that took a billion years. I sold it when I got it back as I couldn't trust it to work when needed.

Classic ... ha ha ha! Only as a lesson in how not to design and market a camera!

 

[jsrockit]

Yes, I get it, it is a polarizing camera. However, the fact people keep using it after 15 years makes it a classic. These are not people who cannot afford another camera. These are people that willingly choose to buy this camera or keep using it. Yes, the D700 and Epson RFs are also classics. It is very clear.

 

[boojum]

I bought an M8 new. My first and last Leica. Worst and most unreliable camera I've ever owned. In use it occasionally and randomly froze (and always if taking multiple shots), and I had to reboot it like a crap computer by taking out the battery and putting it in again! Then the shutter seized after a few months, after which the sensor went south! Leica repaired it under warranty - but that took a billion years. I sold it when I got it back as I couldn't trust it to work when needed.

Classic ... ha ha ha! Only as a lesson in how not to design and market a camera!

Any survey with one observation is notoriously inaccurate. That you did not use it after repairs makes the sole observation even less valid.

I have an M8.2 which functions just fine and gets great pics in the right light, i. e. good light and makes some very nice B&W. I have had it a bit more than a year now, use it often and it has not yet failed. It has its limitations but it works and makes very nice images.

Sorry that you had different luck. I have read of these problems before. But I have never seen a survey of how often it happens. We read more of failures than successes. I'll give the Devil his due, it works fine for me.

 

[DaveSee]

Greets!
M8 a classic? With the same CCD as M9, it's a classic (Kodak) CCD camera. As an early "adopter," I was offered not only IR filter, but also "discount" on a Leica lens after the sensor IR leak acknowledged/admitted by Leica. Attached, a pic shot zone-focused w/M8 & Elmarit 24 ASPH (bought w/that discount, a "classic" too). As early adopter,
I & others (2006) quickly noted the IR "leak," even to Sean Reid's review, wherein he hadn't seen it 😉 However, w/o IR cut filter, IR pics more effectively made: greater potential.
Maybe the M8, 9,& 240 versions of CCD sensor cams ARE classic rangefinder M-mount cams. The Nikon D700 is SLR... been there, done that.
CCD better than CMOS sensors? Dunno, yet my M8 remains in the stable with my M-mount lenses, & M10 bodies.

Good rising, & health,

 

[Fauxtographer]

Having bought an M-8 with a super low shutter count recently, I must say that I love it with all its quirks. The lack of an AA filter puts the sharpness on par with my Monochrom typ246 when shooting B&W on the M-8. Throwing on an IR/UV cut filter immediately resolved the color aberration issues with greens and blacks. I love my M-8…just as I have loved all my M-bodies. It’s a tool like any other and you have to learn how to use it in the ways that it works best. YMMV.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

Could the M8 become a "classic?"

What do you think?

Not a chance!

 

[jonal928]

The Leica M8 has been considered a classic since day one.

 

[boojum]

The Leica M8 has been considered a classic since day one.

Thank you.