M4 or M4-P

[Phil_F_NM]

The black chrome M4p makes you completely invisible if you put tape all over the camera, same with the M4-2. The black paint M4 will draw every camera nerd within a 10 mile radius, so it does the opposite. Chrome M4 will not have that effect but is not effective as a cloaking device.
Phil Forrest

 

[Calzone]

If you understand the rule of thirds just use the 90mm frames as the center rectangle on a M4 for 28mm.

What makes the M4 my preference is that the M4 has bigger frames than say my M6 or a M4-P. Also the 50mm frames don't have 75mm frames for a cleaner VF'er.

Know that I had Sherry strip out the 75mm Frames from my M6 and a MP because I love the 50mm frames alone like a M4.

Also know my most used lens is a 28.

Also consider a M6 if you like the M4-P.

Cal

 

[Bill Blackwell]

There are differences other than those mentioned so far.
M4-P:
* Hot shoe;
* No self timer;
* Has a link for a motor/winder;
* RF condenser has been removed (the RF patch is more inclined to white-out);
* 6 framelines.
M4:
* Cold shoe;
* Self-timer;
* No winder link-up;
* 4 framelines.

Study the differences, which don't include the overall intangible "feel" (and engraving), decide what features are important to you - then make your purchase!

Whichever you chose, regardless of what the seller says, plan on a CLA (~$350).

 

[Bill Blackwell]

The M4 is in fact an M2, but with a 135mm frameline added and different wind/rewind levers/knobs. The M4 has a "quick" film loading system. There is no difference in quality. An M4 is just as smooth and precise as an M2. The M4-P however is built to lower standards, hence it is cheaper. ...

Every M film camera (including the latest film MP) was/is built to a lower standard compared to those up, and through, the M5. This is indisputable - but the fact is, if properly serviced, any of these cameras will outlast your grandchildren - film accessibility notwithstanding.

Therefore, "build quality" isn't really an issue.

 

[Erik van Straten]

"build quality" isn't really an issue.

For me it is, because the build quality is directly related to the "feel" of the camera. I know that the results of both cameras will be equally good, but the pleasure of using the camera, the "feel", is very important to me.


Erik.

 

[mpaniagua]

Every M film camera (including the latest film MP) was/is built to a lower standard compared to those up, and through, the M5. This is indisputable - but the fact is, if properly serviced, any of these cameras will outlast your grandchildren - film accessibility notwithstanding.

Therefore, "build quality" isn't really an issue.

In the technical sense, it isn't. On the enjoyment and usage it may be. It depends on the user. If the enjoyment or user experience is not at issue, probably M4-P would be better.

Also, investment wise, probably a M4 would keep its value better?


Best regards

Marcelo

 

[simonbakhshnia]

I am not sure how to group all Quotes into one message so I will just ask my further questions from what has been said.

1. How important is it to find a Leica with a newly done CLA.
2. Best place to get a Leica CLA'd.
3. Is eBay a good place to purchase a Leica? If not where?
4. For those who have owned an M4 and M4-P is the build quality even that noticeable?

And also thanks to everyone who responded, very helpful and has expanded my knowledge a bit more!

 

[mpaniagua]

1.- Really important. You are talking about $200-500 CLA charges here.
2.- Depends on what is to be done on the CLA. For a regular CLA, I would go for Youxin Ye (yyyeCamera). For a complete overhaul, would go for Don at DAG Camera. Just my experience though, and I bet everyone will tell u a different story.
3.-Not sure I would recommend ebay for a CLA, fully functional Leica. Everyone has a different concept about CLA so YMMV. If you get a bargain and adding +$200-500 for CLA sound good to you, then go ahead. If you would like to save problems, then locally or probably classified on this forum. Lots of decent people and, most importantly, actual photographers selling here.
4.-I've 2 M4 and had one M4-P. I would say slighltly noticeable on film advance and probably weight. Call me an idiot but M4-P feels a little bit more "cheap" but not actually a problem. Otherwise, hardly noticeable unless you like 28mm. By the way, I sold M4-P because I sometimes use the self timer and I prefer that feature and I seldom use a 28mm (use M6 for that).

I think both of them are great cameras. Just prefered M4 due to the self timer.

Regards

Marcelo

 

[simonbakhshnia]

1.- Really important. You are talking about $200-500 CLA charges here.
2.- Depends on what is to be done on the CLA. For a regular CLA, I would go for Youxin Ye (yyyeCamera). For a complete overhaul, would go for Don at DAG Camera. Just my experience though, and I bet everyone will tell u a different story.
3.-Not sure I would recommend ebay for a CLA, fully functional Leica. Everyone has a different concept about CLA so YMMV. If you get a bargain and adding +$200-500 for CLA sound good to you, then go ahead. If you would like to save problems, then locally or probably classified on this forum. Lots of decent people and, most importantly, actual photographers selling here.
4.-I've 2 M4 and had one M4-P. I would say slighltly noticeable on film advance and probably weight. Call me an idiot but M4-P feels a little bit more "cheap" but not actually a problem. Otherwise, hardly noticeable unless you like 28mm. By the way, I sold M4-P because I sometimes use the self timer and I prefer that feature and I seldom use a 28mm (use M6 for that).

I think both of them are great cameras. Just prefered M4 due to the self timer.

Regards

Marcelo

Thanks for the reply! Very helpful. I will probably end up shooting for an M4 unless I find a really nice M4-P.

 

[mpaniagua]

Thanks for the reply! Very helpful. I will probably end up shooting for an M4 unless I find a really nice M4-P.

Again, if you find a freshly CLA M4-P, go for it. I guess most important criteria is condition.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

I kept my M4 only for sentimental reasons but I've owned and used M2, M4, M4P and a couple of the digital versions. Youxin did a complete overhaul and custom fit job on my M4P and it was one of the nicest cameras I had ever used, ever. It was a 70th Anniversary camera and after Youxin worked on it, it was every bit as good as an M4 and then some. That camera was sold to a member here who later sold it to another RFF member and as far as I know it is being well used in Singapore. I would never hesitate to grab any M4 version, this includes the M4-2. The youngest M4-2 is 40+ years old now so all the links have probably been worked out if any had existed at all.
I bought my M4 sight unseen from KEH and it was shipped halfway around the world to Iraq where I used it to cover the 2004 fall invasion of Fallujah. Buy from a reputable seller, be ready to get a CLA and then shoot that camera enough to wear grooves in the pressure plate. Don't worry about what body you get, M4, M4-2, or M4-P. Just shoot and have fun.
Phil Forrest

 

[Bill Blackwell]

1.- Really important. You are talking about $200-500 CLA charges here.
2.- Depends on what is to be done on the CLA. For a regular CLA, I would go for Youxin Ye (yyyeCamera). For a complete overhaul, would go for Don at DAG Camera. Just my experience though, and I bet everyone will tell u a different story.
3.-Not sure I would recommend ebay for a CLA, fully functional Leica. Everyone has a different concept about CLA so YMMV. If you get a bargain and adding +$200-500 for CLA sound good to you, then go ahead. If you would like to save problems, then locally or probably classified on this forum. Lots of decent people and, most importantly, actual photographers selling here.
4.-I've 2 M4 and had one M4-P. I would say slighltly noticeable on film advance and probably weight. Call me an idiot but M4-P feels a little bit more "cheap" but not actually a problem. Otherwise, hardly noticeable unless you like 28mm. By the way, I sold M4-P because I sometimes use the self timer and I prefer that feature and I seldom use a 28mm (use M6 for that).

I think both of them are great cameras. Just prefered M4 due to the self timer.

Regards

Marcelo

On the whole, I would agree with Marcelo.

Except - all things being equal - I would take an M4 for the overall feel compared to an M4-P. It's like choosing a comparably equipped Lexus (M4) over a Toyota (M4-P or M-A for that matter). They'll both get you there - and last you - but the Lexus just "feels better."

IMHO, eBay is fine for a buying source, but again, I would plan on a full CLA regardless of what the buyer says about it. When buying a Leica M on eBay, I can't remember a single time when the buyer said "all speeds accurate" when the camera didn't end up needing a CLA.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

😱😱

You may want to rephrase that? 😉

Sorry, my way of thinking and describing might be different than yours....

German current manufacturing and past ELC is not at it was during M4 production.

This should not trigger any thinking, to be digested direct. 🙂

 

[mpaniagua]

On the whole, I would agree with Marcelo.

Except - all things being equal - I would take an M4 for the overall feel compared to an M4-P. It's like choosing a comparably equipped Lexus (M4) over a Toyota (M4-P or M-A for that matter). They'll both get you there - and last you - but the Lexus just "feels better."

IMHO, eBay is fine for a buying source, but again, I would plan on a full CLA regardless of what the buyer says about it. When buying a Leica M on eBay, I can't remember a single time when the buyer said "all speeds accurate" when the camera didn't end up needing a CLA.

Yeah, agree on that too. M4 feels more solid.

By the way, both my cars are Toyota 🙂 (Corolla and Rav4) and couldn't be happier (mostly because my wife is happy 😉)
Marcelo

 

[Huss]

I am not sure how to group all Quotes into one message so I will just ask my further questions from what has been said.

1. How important is it to find a Leica with a newly done CLA.
2. Best place to get a Leica CLA'd.
3. Is eBay a good place to purchase a Leica? If not where?
4. For those who have owned an M4 and M4-P is the build quality even that noticeable?

And also thanks to everyone who responded, very helpful and has expanded my knowledge a bit more!

CLA is only needed if it needs it... you can tell if the rf needs it if the images do not superimpose completely on the vertical and horizontal axes when focused at infinity.
Any decent shop can quickly test the shutter on their shutter timers to tell you if the shutter needs adjusting. In Los Angeles Steve’s Camera or Dean’s Camera repair can do that. Most prob for free.

Dont put money into it if it doesnt need it. And ebay is a fantastic place to buy as you get full buyer protection. Something is wrong? Refund! I’ve bought a bunch of Leica gear from them.

 

[simonbakhshnia]

How often are CLA's required? Do you feel when it is needed? And how long does it take to get done?

 

[Phil_F_NM]

How often are CLA's required? Do you feel when it is needed? And how long does it take to get done?

If you notice any roughness in the winder. If your film shows uneven exposure across the frame. If it sounds like it is clearing it's throat. If the shutter speeds don't change to the point that you can hear the difference for 1/60 and slower. If the finder doesn't focus, is cloudy or sluggish. All are symptoms of needing a CLA.
How long depends upon who your repair person is, how good they are and how in demand they are.
Phil Forrest

 

[presspass]

Not that often. I have had three done over the years - two M6TTL cameras by DAG and a IIIa by Youxin Ye. The Ttl cameras were done years ago and came back better than when they were when I bought them new and they are still the smoothest Ms I have. The IIIa was bought on a whim in very good condition and probably had not been touched in years. It, too, is incredibly smooth and great to use. Unless you drop it or get it wet, a Leica will last and work properly for decades. If it works well when you get it, you won't need a CLA for years.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

... Any decent shop can quickly test the shutter on their shutter timers to tell you if the shutter needs adjusting. In Los Angeles Steve’s Camera or Dean’s Camera repair can do that. ...

Or you can simply use your ears. You can tell immediately by listening to the shutter from 30th and below.

FWIW, if a Leica M camera is used often a proper CLA can last 20 years or more.

 

[simonbakhshnia]

Thanks for the info, much appreciated! I have made my mind up, will be getting an M4!