M4 or M4-P

M4 or M4-P

  • M4

    Votes: 29 54.7%

  • M4-P

    Votes: 24 45.3%
  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
Well, I have the three incarnations of the M4 (M4, M4-2 and M4-P) and I won't describe them as cheap, light, low quality or any other way that's not good quality tools. Granted, they may have a different feel, but all in all, the only objective difference (to me) is that the M4 is slightly heavier than the other two.

Let me add that at this point the notion that the M4-2 early batch is defective sounds suspicious to me. However many cameras there were, I'm sure they were repaired ever since they were issued in 1984 by either their first or any subsequent owner, so I am sure there are no defective M4-2s out there. Same must be with the famous curse of the serial # below 134xxxx in the M5 bodies (supposedly defective, although I don't know how).

If you already made up your mind and decided to go for an M4... good luck shopping! I'd go for whatever crosses my path at a good price and in good condition: M4-2, M4-P or M4. In any case, have fun and take care! 🙂
 
SolaresLarrave said:
Well, I have the three incarnations of the M4 (M4, M4-2 and M4-P) and I won't describe them as cheap, light, low quality or any other way that's not good quality tools. Granted, they may have a different feel, but all in all, the only objective difference (to me) is that the M4 is slightly heavier than the other two.

Let me add that at this point the notion that the M4-2 early batch is defective sounds suspicious to me. However many cameras there were, I'm sure they were repaired ever since they were issued in 1984 by either their first or any subsequent owner, so I am sure there are no defective M4-2s out there. Same must be with the famous curse of the serial # below 134xxxx in the M5 bodies (supposedly defective, although I don't know how).

If you already made up your mind and decided to go for an M4... good luck shopping! I'd go for whatever crosses my path at a good price and in good
condition: M4-2, M4-P or M4. In any case, have fun and take care! 🙂
Click to expand...
At this point I want a M4’s but I am definitely open if I find a amazing condition M4 P.
 
simonbakhshnia said:
How often are CLA's required? Do you feel when it is needed? And how long does it take to get done?
Click to expand...


Hi,

This is a very easy question to ask but a very difficult one to answer.

The problem is that, by the time you notice something is odd, a lot of other things will also need a little TLC. And if you are unlucky the other things could be well advanced too. You will have noticed by now that a lot of people commenting on cameras say how transformed they were after a check up and so on. That's because what usually happens is that the entire camera is stripped down cleaned and thoroughly checked before being re-assembled with new lubrication and so on and everything adjusted and tested again. And that's not cheap...

One answer is to send it in to be checked (say) every couple of years like Nikon recommended for one of my cameras. Another answer is to use it all the time and hope you notice when things start to change. There's also a lot you can do to keep it in good working order but it involves reading the instruction book and doing what it says. Now, look on ebay, and count the number of cameras sold with the instruction books...

I'd also suggest buying from a dealer who gives a proper guarantee but that's dearer and few think a proper guarantee is a year. (Recently I saw a IIIf for sale recently in a dealer's shop window with a guarantee for just two weeks, they wanted 800 UK pounds for it. And sitting in sunlight behind glass in the summer is not how I would store it.)

I'm sorry I can't say more. It really is a gamble buying an old camera and very few film cameras are under 15 to 20 years old these days.

Regards, David
 
Weight a minute ...


Some years ago, out of curiosity, I weighted some gear when I had nothing to do.


My surprise ...

in variety of weights in those Leica M of different types and period.


Same process for all, no strap, no film inside, so as "nude" as can be, but not really "as to use" ( no film ! )



M4-2 the lightest 523g
some M4 : 538g, 541g, 547g, 555g (good number here), two 557g !
some M4-P : 537g, 543g, 550g


two M2 : 560g, 571g


the heaviest is MP x0.85 (to be fair ...with batteries ) at 600g

while the other MP x0.72 is a bit lighter at 595g
 
I had my M6 overhauled by Sherry over a decade ago. I had the MP finder upgrade performed and had the 75mm frames stripped out.

Know there is a difference between a CLA and an overhaul, where in an overhaul parts are replaced and the camera is stripped down more fully.

IMHO the term CLA is overused and misused.

One thing I can do to tell if a camera needs service is test the one second shutter speed. For me I can count to seven out loud speaking clearly and as fast as I can.

Cameras can still work/function, but the one second shutter speed is seldom used, as well as the other slower speeds. The slow speeds is where the shutter can stick.

Also when running the one second shutter speed there is a run on that persists after the shutter closes. On fresh cameras, new Leicas, and on Leica M's that are continually used, this run on is very long, perhaps half a second or more. This basically tells me the condition of the lubricants.

This tells me if the camera has been regularly used or if it has been a shelf queen. BTW Leicas love to be used. Like a mechanical watch they are best used.

I have a Rolex that I just had overhauled recently this year. I bought it new in 2003, and it ran non stop for 16 years. Worse thing is to go unused. Another camera that also has to be used to maintain is a Rollieflex.

The best thing you can do is use your Leica regularly.

Cal
 
M4 story: At Adorama I found a clean M4 that needed an "overhaul." The shutter on one second at times got stuck, but never fully jammed.

Upon close inspection it had the original "L" seal on the lens mount flange, so basically this was an original M4 that had never been serviced ever, and for $499.00 in clean condition the cost of an overhaul would make this a very remarkable M4.

I sent the M4 off to Sherry. Upon its return Sherry made a note on my receipt that the camera came to her with the original "L" seal.

I ended up selling this camera to a my friend Andre who still owns this special camera.

Slightly off-topic but my friend at Adorama showed me a M3-DS. When I dry fired the camera I noted that it was kinda stiff and loud for an old M3.

"You don't understand," he said, and he showed me the brand new "L" seal on the lens flange, "It was just serviced by Leica, that is brand new "L" seal and they even resilvered the prism."

So pretty much this was like a brand new M3-DS as it gets. $1.3K was the price. My friend Brian now owns this special M3-DS.

In a ways I miss these cameras because it is unlikely I will find such prime examples again. They were deals of a lifetime, but I have many other cameras.

I bought these cameras at a time when film cameras were being dumped. You could buy Nikon F3's for $75.00.

Cal
 
David Hughes said:
..

(Recently I saw a IIIf for sale recently in a dealer's shop window with a guarantee for just two weeks, they wanted 800 UK pounds for it. And sitting in sunlight behind glass in the summer is not how I would store it.)
Click to expand...

To be fair, sitting in sunlight in summer in England lasts about one day.
 
You'll be happy with either one. I voted for the M4-P since that is what I have, but had looked at an M4 previous to that, and would have bought it if the owner had come down a bit in price. The frameline selection of the M4-P also appealed to me, as I have no qualms with seeing two frames in one view. It helps me to get my horizons straight.


PF
 
I voted M4-P after having sold mine (owned 9 yrs) and an M4-2 (owned 6 yrs) to buy a black-paint M4 in 2016. The M4 is nice and black-paint looks nicer than black-chrome but the M4-P/M4-2 are simply the sturdier and more versatile cameras and can be used with rapidwinders/motors and also have a hot-shoe.


However, the 28mm frame-line of the M4-P is more a gimmick than useful since it almost has the same size as the whole VF itself and is difficult to see already without wearing glasses. Anything 28/21 wide on a Leica is easier to use with an external VF.
 
Calzone said:
M4 story: At Adorama I found a clean M4 that needed an "overhaul." The shutter on one second at times got stuck, but never fully jammed.

Upon close inspection it had the original "L" seal on the lens mount flange, so basically this was an original M4 that had never been serviced ever, and for $499.00 in clean condition the cost of an overhaul would make this a very remarkable M4.

I sent the M4 off to Sherry. Upon its return Sherry made a note on my receipt that the camera came to her with the original "L" seal.

I ended up selling this camera to a my friend Andre who still owns this special camera.

Slightly off-topic but my friend at Adorama showed me a M3-DS. When I dry fired the camera I noted that it was kinda stiff and loud for an old M3.

"You don't understand," he said, and he showed me the brand new "L" seal on the lens flange, "It was just serviced by Leica, that is brand new "L" seal and they even resilvered the prism."

So pretty much this was like a brand new M3-DS as it gets. $1.3K was the price. My friend Brian now owns this special M3-DS.

In a ways I miss these cameras because it is unlikely I will find such prime examples again. They were deals of a lifetime, but I have many other cameras.

I bought these cameras at a time when film cameras were being dumped. You could buy Nikon F3's for $75.00.

Cal
Click to expand...

This story made me walk over to the room I keep my M3 in and take it out of its box and lay a huge kiss on it.
 
maddoc said:
I voted M4-P after having sold mine (owned 9 yrs) and an M4-2 (owned 6 yrs) to buy a black-paint M4 in 2016. The M4 is nice and black-paint looks nicer than black-chrome but the M4-P/M4-2 are simply the sturdier and more versatile cameras and can be used with rapidwinders/motors and also have a hot-shoe.


However, the 28mm frame-line of the M4-P is more a gimmick than useful since it almost has the same size as the whole VF itself and is difficult to see already without wearing glasses. Anything 28/21 wide on a Leica is easier to use with an external VF.
Click to expand...

I have a MD-2 which is a M4-P without the rangefinder. I use this for ultrawides with an external VF'er. I also love the driveshaft that allows me to use a TA Rapidwinder.

I inquired with Sherry to have a M4 or M3 modified with the driveshaft so I could use a Rapidwinder, but Sherry refused. Evidently the brass gears for the film transport is what gives the perceived smoothness in the earlier cameras.

The M4-P and my M6 have steel gears.

Cal
 
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