M4 problems

To become a good photographer (in regards to getting well-exposed images) you are going to have to learn to read the light, whether you use a meter or not. Meters often lie, or at least misinform, and you are likely to get mediocre results by relying on a meter in many situations. And there will be situations where you may want to subtract or add a stop for whatever reason, to make an image darker and more "moody", or the opposite. A practiced eye is much better in such situations than a meter.

To get the most accurate expsoures you will need to use an incident meter, or get a spot meter and learn how to use the zone system, or at least be able to average out the readings from different parts of your subject.

Sunny 16 is a good place to start, but you are going to find that sunny 16 is not so good for objects in shadows, buildings or subjects with the sun behind them, or when shooting when there is no sun, such as on cloudy days or at night.

Get yourself a garden-variety incident meter, not a Leica MR meter or VC meter. When walking around in different lighting situations, take a reading of a particular subject by holding the meter in front of the subject, and directing the dome of the meter toward the source of the light, and make a note of it. Get readings on cloudy days, lightly overcast days, in the shade of buildings and trees. Shoot a lot of film, and take notes of what settings you used.

Read photo books and magazines, look at the settings used to make each image (many books contain this info), go out and try shooting with the same settings in the same situations.

My first "meter" was the back cover of an old Rolleiflex, which has a simple table telling you which settings to use in certain situations at different times of the year. Simply adding a stop or two (or three) to the recommended settings depending on the film you are using is all you need to do.

It doesn't take that much time to become proficient, and with practice you can learn to read the light accurately.
 
There is no substitute for learning to read the light. Burn a dozen rolls of the b&w film of your choice, guessing. Try to remember what you did when you screw up and adjust. Always use the same film, same developer, same everything. Don't get too attached to your pictures, because until you get good at it, you'll make mistakes and ruin them. Eventually, you'll be pretty close to spot-on. Amuse your friends by telling them the exposure for the scene you're in. They'll check it on their metered cameras and say, with some awe, "Wow. You're right."
That's what a Leica is for. M6's are for wusses.

Yes. My wife thinks I have magical powers. When she brings out her old Pentax Spotmatic we play a game called "guess the exposure" where I guess and she checks. 95 % of the time I'm within a stop, indoors, outdoors, it doesn't matter. It's the result of learning to shoot film with an unmetered camera and having done it off and on (mostly on) for close to 40 years. I'm now doing the same with my niece, who is learning the basics of film photography. Learn the light and you'll substantially up your photography street cred.


***And the photos on you Tumblr page are wonderful. Post more.
 
To become a good photographer (in regards to getting well-exposed images) you are going to have to learn to read the light, whether you use a meter or not. Meters often lie, or at least misinform, and you are likely to get mediocre results by relying on a meter in many situations. And there will be situations where you may want to subtract or add a stop for whatever reason, to make an image darker and more "moody", or the opposite. A practiced eye is much better in such situations than a meter.

To get the most accurate expsoures you will need to use an incident meter, or get a spot meter and learn how to use the zone system, or at least be able to average out the readings from different parts of your subject.

Sunny 16 is a good place to start, but you are going to find that sunny 16 is not so good for objects in shadows, buildings or subjects with the sun behind them, or when shooting when there is no sun, such as on cloudy days or at night.

Get yourself a garden-variety incident meter, not a Leica MR meter or VC meter. When walking around in different lighting situations, take a reading of a particular subject by holding the meter in front of the subject, and directing the dome of the meter toward the source of the light, and make a note of it. Get readings on cloudy days, lightly overcast days, in the shade of buildings and trees. Shoot a lot of film, and take notes of what settings you used.

Read photo books and magazines, look at the settings used to make each image (many books contain this info), go out and try shooting with the same settings in the same situations.

My first "meter" was the back cover of an old Rolleiflex, which has a simple table telling you which settings to use in certain situations at different times of the year. Simply adding a stop or two (or three) to the recommended settings depending on the film you are using is all you need to do.

It doesn't take that much time to become proficient, and with practice you can learn to read the light accurately.

Good post, some great advice in all of the posts here. I appreciate it guys. One thing I have taken is that I should keep trying and try and think about exposures even when not shooting and test myself using an app
 
I recently got an M4-P, my first meterless camera. I have found Sunny 16 to be pretty easy and accurate in good lighting. I've been using an iPhone app to double-check my estimate. I'm always guessing and checking the reading, even when I don't have a camera with me.

But today I bought a new Sekonic L-208 for $100 on ebay. I think it will be more convenient than the phone, and help until I become more skilled. I got it instead of the CV because I prefer incident readings.

I certainly would not give up yet. It's a new skill that requires time and practice. But once we gain some mastery, it should be very valuable.

John
 
To give you all an update Ive decided to stick with the M4 but invest in a light meter.

Possibly looking at the Gossensix digital or the VC meter.
 
In the olden days, back in the nineteen fifties & sixties, I didn't own a light meter. Didn't want to spend or had the money. Back then, with each film, came a fair amount of information printed on a thin white sheet of paper. It gave, for different conditions, what to set the f stop and shutter speed.

Usually wasn't off by much. Remember film has quite a lot of latitude, especially black & white film. Slide or transparency film doesn't have the latitude of negative film. When I made photos with slide film I tended to under expose by 1/2 to 1 f stop. With negative film, I tended to over expose a wee bit.

There is always the sunny f 16 rule!

M4 is an outstanding camera.

Hope this helps you.
 
Thanks Bill. I am just going to crack on.

Ideally Id like to learn my Weston Master meter but info on the interweb is quite sparse. I need an idiots guide to using it. I think I may just being dumb but there is a lot of info on it

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I realize this is a really old thread, but just a couple weeks ago I got a VCII meter for my M4. I gotta say, I'm loving it. Am working on a project with the M4 where I'm shooting a lot of the new Ektachrome, so am a bit gun-shy about using the Sunny 16 method I've always used with this camera and Tri-X.

I found the VCII, mounted on the M4, was surprisingly easy to use and didn't upset my usual shooting method as much as I had expected. And the exposures have been spot on. Kinda wish I had picked one of these up years ago.

Best,
-Tim
 
I carry around a Sekonic L-308s with my M3, because it's quite small and pocketable (and it has flash metering capabilities--I use it with other cameras as well, including for flash).

However, as others have said, if you learn Sunny F16, and learn to judge exposure, with black and white film you really don't need a meter. In my early days of photography, I carred around an incident meter, and occasionally I'd look around and say, "Hmmmm, ISO 400, 1/250 at 5.6." Then I'd pull out the meter and check. Eventually, I got so proficient that, as others have also described above, I'd usually be easily within a stop of correct exposure. (And in fact, I always overexpose just a bit--I shoot 400 speed film at 250--so any errors will be generally rather harmless.)

There are several apps for phones that either use the phone's camera to meter, or provide a useful exposure guide. One of my favorites for iPhone used to be Expositor, but that seems to have disappeared (there's an app by that name on the App Store, but it's not the same thing). There is a 99-cent app called Exposure Calculator that seems to do the same thing, although it's not as polished as Expositor was.

But yeah, learning to estimate your exposure properly can save you time and give you a better ability to visualize what your photos are going to look like.
 
Imperfect judgement backed up by sporadic reference to a meter ...

Imperfect judgement backed up by sporadic reference to a meter ...

I have not been moved to post here more than a few times over the years, but I must say I find the inherent (il)logic expressed in this thread -- and many others like it -- to be absolutely absurd.

On the one hand, "real" photographers are exhorted to learn to judge light levels by trial and error and, on the other, it is urged that such judgements be empirically (if episodically) "calibrated" through resort to an external meter, or even a cell phone app!

Extraordinary.

What for? Should a pilot 'guesstimate' his height with only occasional reference to an altimeter? What exactly is accomplished by deliberately introducing error into the photographic process?

Certainly a proficiency at judging relative light levels is a necessity for the accomplished photographer, but many posters on RFF seem to think their very manhood depends upon it.

Buy an M5 (or an M6-upwards, if you like disposable cameras), and stop squandering film -- it's simply indefensible, if for no other reason than that it's environmentally unsound.

Marc
 
M4... or metered Leica

M4... or metered Leica

There have been many good ideas here. I think the general premise comes down to measuring (or guessing or judging or approximating) the exposure before you want to take a photo.....rather than pointing the camera the instant before you compose. The M4 is a great camera, & my personal favourite. In fact I sold my MP in order to get an M4. Any of the many small meters will work.... it's just adjusting to a way of thinking photographically....
 
To give you all an update Ive decided to stick with the M4 but invest in a light meter.

Possibly looking at the Gossensix digital or the VC meter.


Buy the Leica MR-4 meter. It was made for this camera and everything else is a work around. You may or may not need a battery adapter. Fast and easy in use. For street shooting you do not even need to bring the camera to eye level. Only one control to move, either the shutter speed or aperture - not both. You on't need a separate meter to keep your hands full while you try transferring meter readings to your camera.
 
I find "guessing" the exposure in Northern Latitudes during winter, almost impossible.
Clouds slightly above one's head going up miles..
A meter is needed! Using digital sources a problem.
Digital "sees" way into darkness..
My experiences with MR meter are totally negative.
It was a lousy piece of equipment, unreliable, lack of service support..
both Leica ZA and Metrawatt..
I have the M6TTL and now know "No More Parts"..

I was a pro and soon drifted off to SLR Pentax and later Nikon-F,
due to high maintenance costs..
Nikon had few services and Pentax never, NEVER!
I still use all, love my old Pentaxes..
 
The Leicameters from Metrawatt are not very good, very old now. Often they damage the camera. It is better to use a small meter from Voigtländer, both models are good. If you have a viewfinder on your camera so there is no more room for a meter, you can hang one around your neck.


Erik.
 
Personally I prefer light meters but equally, a modest amount of practice will enable you to judge exposures surprisingly accurately, surprisingly often.

Cheers,

R.

This is absolutely true. It just takes practice. Counterintuitive as it may seem, after a little practice you will find that you become more accurate than an in camera meter in discerning correct exposure. The meter, after all, does not know what you want to emphasize or de-emphasize, whether your subject is the sun against the building or the shade under the tree, etc.
 
A few months back I got my first Leica, an M4. I coupled it with a Zeiss Biogon 35mm f2. (lovely lens)

I love the camera and the lens and have run about 10 rolls through it so far. I have to my standards had some really nice shots from it. Problem is Ive also ruined some opportunities which I feel if I had an in camera light meter would have nailed.

I am used to my OM1 which has a light meter and has served me well. Im learning about the exposures and have a light meter app and a weston master but I find it slows me down.

Should I perservere or should I cut my losses and sell the M4 to make way for an M6?

I am a huge fan of the MR meter. not very big, couples with the shutter speed dial and even makes the dial easier to turn with one finger. find of that is working and enjoy the M4!
 
I have not been moved to post here more than a few times over the years, but I must say I find the inherent (il)logic expressed in this thread -- and many others like it -- to be absolutely absurd.

On the one hand, "real" photographers are exhorted to learn to judge light levels by trial and error and, on the other, it is urged that such judgements be empirically (if episodically) "calibrated" through resort to an external meter, or even a cell phone app!

Extraordinary.

What for? Should a pilot 'guesstimate' his height with only occasional reference to an altimeter? What exactly is accomplished by deliberately introducing error into the photographic process?

Certainly a proficiency at judging relative light levels is a necessity for the accomplished photographer, but many posters on RFF seem to think their very manhood depends upon it.

Buy an M5 (or an M6-upwards, if you like disposable cameras), and stop squandering film -- it's simply indefensible, if for no other reason than that it's environmentally unsound.

Marc
There may be a generational factor here Marc. How you feel about using a light meter often is influenced by what you learned just starting out. For myself, and perhaps others, we started out just "learning" how to judge light. That was in the early 70's for myself and my mentor had a handheld meter he would consult only occasionally. The proof that his method worked (at least for him) was a strip of 36 Tti-X negs with very even and consistent density, they were easy to print.
Just turned 70 myself and often stuff a Gossen Pilot in my pocket if I'm wandering about outside. that cheap little meter will suffice for daylight and even do incident readings. I personally do not to consult if for every exposure.

Now, exposing photo paper in large format, that is really hard to get right, and a metering of the scene is only a starting point.

As far as wasting film....well I'm also a member of Filmwasters forum and as such authorized to waste film.
 
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