The Future Price of a Leica M6

[HHPhoto]

Do people think that film camera prices have plateaued? Are they still going up? Will there be a crash?

The general trend in the last 2-3 years for more sophisticated cameras (higher end models) has been increasing prices.
Some models have been more affected, some less.
With increasing interest in film photography by young "digital natives" it is to be expected that the trends will continue.
At least it is more unlikely that cameras will become cheaper in the future.
An important role will have China. Some Chinese distributors of film and paper told me that they have increasing demand in the 10-30% range.
So if the big and increasing Chinese market "is discovering film photography" eventually in the next years we will definitely see increasing prices. Especially for Leicas. I've been there, and the Chinese generally love German brands. Leica is very popular there.

Cheers, Jan

 

[twhittle]

This is all very interesting discussion.

I wouldn't buy as an investment solely; I shoot a lot of film and love rangefinders. I was perhaps more interested in how the values might change in the next few years.... and if I need to see it rather than another camera, would I loose money.

Here in the UK the Leica M6 in the last 5/6 years has gone from £500-600 to £1200-1400 for a good condition TTL recently serviced and sold through a used dealer. That's a pretty good return especially if you have been able to use that camera in the meantime.

I think there are a number of reasons for the increase in interest/ price which could be unique to the UK (I would be really interested in other's opinions):

-UK based Youtube channels such as the very popular Negative Feedback promoting the use of Leica's, specifically the M6.

- General increased interest in higher spec/ more professional cameras. People have "done" Lomo/ Polaroid/ Disposable etc and now want a more sophisticated tool.

- The rise in female interest in analogue photography. I would say that I see more women using film cameras in Edinburgh/ London than men.

- These aforementioned small producers of interesting new film. A bit of variation and increased availability has fuelled the market.

- An increased number of used camera shops run by younger people and so free of the sometimes outdated geeky atmosphere that used camera shops can have. Plus their graphic design and web nowhow makes these shops look cool.


Is this the same where you are?

 

[HHPhoto]

Here in the UK the Leica M6 in the last 5/6 years has gone from £500-600 to £1200-1400 for a good condition TTL recently serviced and sold through a used dealer. That's a pretty good return especially if you have been able to use that camera in the meantime.

I think there are a number of reasons for the increase in interest/ price which could be unique to the UK (I would be really interested in other's opinions):

-UK based Youtube channels such as the very popular Negative Feedback promoting the use of Leicas, specifically the M6.

- General increased interest in higher spec/ more professional cameras. People have "done" Lomo/ Polaroid/ Disposable etc and now want a more sophisticated tool.

- The rise in female interest in analogue photography. I would say that I see more women using film cameras in Edinburgh/ London than men.

- These aforementioned small producers of interesting new film. A bit of variation and increased availability has fueled the market.

- An increased number of used camera shops run by younger people and so free of the sometimes outdated geeky atmosphere that used camera shops can have. Plus their graphic design and web knowhow makes these shops look cool.

Good read. I think it is a well made analysis.

Is this the same where you are?

In Germany the situation shows similarities and differences:
Germany has always benefitted from the effect that here a higher percentage of photographers (in comparison to other countries) have been loyal to film and kept using it even in the digital boom phase.
The lab infrastructure is excellent here (one of the best worldwide). And you can get film and development at "every corner of the street" because all drugstore chain shops are offering it. And they offer it at extremely cheap prices.

But we also have regional differences:
Berlin is the film photographer capital of Europe: More than 15 professional film labs, some of them specialised and top level, the Fotoimpex shop as a magnet for film photographers, the new click&surr used camera shop, the new Fotomax shop which is also very active in used film camera selling, camera repair companies, lots of photo galleries and exhibitions, photo museums.
And in Berlin lots of very young photographers are using film. And with a high percentage of female photographers, too.

In other big German cities the situation is also good, but the film photography scene is not as active as in Berlin.

With 'aphognext' Germany has an excellent film photography online forum for years. That has also helped.
And several excellent online distributors for film photography with Fotoimpex being the best and the most active to support the film photography scene.

Cheers, Jan

 

[farlymac]

The only "investment" I consider when talking about Leica is how long it has taken me to come around to the idea of actually owning one. I'll be 65 in a couple of months, and today I ordered an M4-P after all these years of messing around with FSU, and Japanese knock-off gear. It was two years ago when I got my R3, which was quickly upgraded to an R7. And earlier this year I got a CL.


I tried a lot of cameras over the years. It seems I can always find lenses I like, but the cameras are what usually come up short of expectations. I was able to handle an M4 at Robert's Camera last time I went home, and I must say it just felt correct right off the bat. And having a raft of lenses for the CL already makes it all that much easier to pull the trigger on the M4-P (plus the expanded range of the viewfinder frame lines).



It's certainly an "investment" I intend to enjoy for a long time.


PF

 

[rfaspen]

The only "investment" I consider when talking about Leica is how long it has taken me to come around to the idea of actually owning one. I'll be 65 in a couple of months, and today I ordered an M4-P after all these years of messing around with FSU, and Japanese knock-off gear. It was two years ago when I got my R3, which was quickly upgraded to an R7. And earlier this year I got a CL.

I tried a lot of cameras over the years. It seems I can always find lenses I like, but the cameras are what usually come up short of expectations. I was able to handle an M4 at Robert's Camera last time I went home, and I must say it just felt correct right off the bat. And having a raft of lenses for the CL already makes it all that much easier to pull the trigger on the M4-P (plus the expanded range of the viewfinder frame lines).

It's certainly an "investment" I intend to enjoy for a long time.

F

This sums it up so well. Cameras are NOT a monetary investment for me. If I had to call it an investment, it would be an investment in my lifetime enjoyment. Its only a bonus if the financial stuff works in my favor, and its really not of much consequence anyway because I'm not much of a seller of gear. I try to thin out the "collection" now and then and pass along the stuff I just don't use or appreciate, but mostly I just acquire and use.

The M cameras honestly do just "feel right". Don't they? So many people try to chalk that up to "Leica mystique" and justification, etc. But, it really isn't that. The M cameras (film and digital) just plain feel right for me. And that's a big part of the lifetime enjoyment I mentioned earlier. Of course I wish Leica didn't cost so much.....and its a valid topic of deliberation whether it really needs to. But, that's another day, another beer. I do find it unfortunate how Leica has firmly positioned itself as a "luxury brand". That should say something....

But, I used my M2 for a portrait this morning, and I'll take the M240 to the rodeo this evening. The seamless transition in comfortable use between the M cameras is sure nice. The fact that I just enjoy using them helps ensure I actually take photos (not necessarily good ones). The frequent use and lack of "getting tired" with the M bodies has helped me become very familiar with them, and thus my rote competency improves. But enough of my "justification" eh?

Well done farlymac. About time you got a camera that feels right in your hand. I suspect its well-deserved and your investment in lifetime enjoyment will be a good one.

 

[cz23]

The only "investment" I consider when talking about Leica is how long it has taken me to come around to the idea of actually owning one. I'll be 65 in a couple of months, and today I ordered an M4-P after all these years of messing around with FSU, and Japanese knock-off gear. It was two years ago when I got my R3, which was quickly upgraded to an R7. And earlier this year I got a CL.

I tried a lot of cameras over the years. It seems I can always find lenses I like, but the cameras are what usually come up short of expectations. I was able to handle an M4 at Robert's Camera last time I went home, and I must say it just felt correct right off the bat. And having a raft of lenses for the CL already makes it all that much easier to pull the trigger on the M4-P (plus the expanded range of the viewfinder frame lines).

It's certainly an "investment" I intend to enjoy for a long time.

F

Wonderful story, and congrats on your 65 year treat. That was also my first film M. There aren't many better investments than in ourselves and our creativity. Enjoy it!

John

 

[farlymac]

Thanks, rfaspen, and John. And twhittle, I hope you get the M6. It sounds like you already have lenses for it, so getting it at a friends bargain should make the deal all the sweeter.


PF

 

[Oscuro]

Darlings,
I miss my Leicas. But I don't miss film. Not one bit. And many a poor woman has "paid twice" getting to where they should be. The M6, especially the TTL, is a very good camera. Any Leica is a very good camera. They are "in and of themselves" objects of beauty. And absolutely functional objects they are as well.



If the OP wants one, sure. Of course. He should get one. If he wants the pleasure of simply making pictures, well, any point and shoot will be fine - film or digital. If he likes the gestalt of the controls philosophy, then he should buy an M9 or an X100f or, or, or....


If he wants to speculate financially, maybe some mineral stocks would be better....



From the Bridge of Sighs....


Mme. O

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

If it's an investment then you ought to get back the money you spent and that means covering inflation and the cost of repairs.

And you also should get back more than if you put your money in something safe like a bank and were paid interest on it; or an investment fund of some sort - but that brings luck into the equation.

And I don't think that's possible. I've had my Leica CL for decades and have spent a lot of money on it because, from time to time, it has had to be checked and adjusted and so on; mainly because I use it.

My first repair bill was for 120 pounds in 1988, up that in line with inflation and it becomes* roughly 250 to 440 pounds, just to get back the cost of the repair. It's too early in the morning to search for all the bills and upgrade them and then upgrade the cost of the camera and then bring in the interest I'd have got from a savings account but I can't see the total being what I'd get for the camera if I sold it...

EDIT; I wondered what return you'd get if you were crafty and realised repairs and so on would take their toll and so invested in something that wouldn't deteriorate. Using a 1961 Leica price list I reckon buying a screw to bayonet adapter and then locking it in the safe; you'd have to sell it for about 54 to 200 pounds just to keep pace with inflation. And the same for a new in 1961 lens cap then you'd have to sell for 9 to 32 pounds and, for comparison, the M2 body 2055 to 7615 pounds. Have a look at the web site I used for these values to understand.

Regards, David

* Using;- https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ppoweruk/

 

[Richard G]

The only "investment" I consider when talking about Leica is how long it has taken me to come around to the idea of actually owning one. I'll be 65 in a couple of months, and today I ordered an M4-P after all these years of messing around with FSU, and Japanese knock-off gear. It was two years ago when I got my R3, which was quickly upgraded to an R7. And earlier this year I got a CL.


I tried a lot of cameras over the years. It seems I can always find lenses I like, but the cameras are what usually come up short of expectations. I was able to handle an M4 at Robert's Camera last time I went home, and I must say it just felt correct right off the bat. And having a raft of lenses for the CL already makes it all that much easier to pull the trigger on the M4-P (plus the expanded range of the viewfinder frame lines).



It's certainly an "investment" I intend to enjoy for a long time.


PF

Wonderful. Congratulations and enjoy it. And what a great answer to the OP.

 

[mcfingon]

I can only add that I have an '86 M6 and love it. Smooth and quiet, and very functional.

John Mc

 

[E.M]

John Mc , it's a lucky nr.7 Leica that you have , haven't seen one before !

 

[vtckon]

M6 won't go up noticeable over the next few years, so this would not be a good investment.

Turns out the prices went crazy. Now you gotta pay 2000-2500 EUR for an M6, that's 1000 EUR more than when OP started this thread.

My cameras, like my cars, are not treated like investments -- At all.

[...]

I simply looked in the closet and noticed that I wasn't using the Rollei 2003 system much anymore, and I would prefer to have a digital M. So, sold some stuff, bought some stuff. Thus goes the spinning world...

Same here. I bought an MP for 1500 EUR, sold it for 2500 EUR one year later. Now they are at 3000 EUR or higher. So what?
Same price trend goes for my Contax T2.

I'm just wondering why that is. YouTube/Instagram hype?

Feels like film cameras have the chance to outrageously increase their value while digital ones only plummet.

 

[David Hughes]

There's a slight snag to this; watch this forum and you will see that moans come in waves. Years ago everyone was on about the M2 and M3's but nowadays it's the M6 and M7...

I think that people buy on reputation and having paid a lot they think the things will last for ever and so don't get them serviced and checked regularly. Leicas - being well made - tend to wear the same as everything else but they wear out gradually and then something fails and people get a shock.

To keep them going, like cars, bikes etc. etc. they need regular checking and so on. That affects the condition and that affects the price. The problem is that the things don't have log books for maintenance like (say) an aircraft and you have to guess; usually you'll get it wrong. But by then it may be too late and you'll get a big bill.

As for investment value; I have been stuck at home for months and have been doing a lot of clearing up and so on. I found and have in a folder all the bills for my old Leica and wondered what it cost in all over the years (UKP 774). Then I looked at the spreadsheet and wondered what I'd have in the bank if I'd put that money into a boring savings account. For my Leica CL the answer was UKP 2690...

I used the yearly interest rates published by swanlowpark.co.uk

I just hope someone finds this of interest.


Regards, David

 

[narsuitus]

Do people think that film camera prices have plateaued? Are they still going up? Will there be a crash?

Have stock prices plateaued? Are real estate still going up? Will our economy collapse?

Who knows?

Decades ago, when I really needed a Leica rangefinder, I could not afford one.

Years later, when I could afford one, I could not fiscally justify its purchase.

More recently, I bought a Leica M6 because I wanted one.

Life is too short and I will only pass this way once.


Leica M6 by Narsuitus, on Flickr

 

[David Hughes]

The day photographers start justifying their purchases the bottom will fall out of the stock market and mayhem will ensue...


Regards, David

 

[raid]

I bought a very clean M6 Classic many years ago, and I still have it. It is a very good camera for actively taking photos with it. It was never an investment for me. I keep such items. I forgot what I paid for it, but it may have been $1200.

 

[HHPhoto]

Turns out the prices went crazy. Now you gotta pay 2000-2500 EUR for an M6, that's 1000 EUR more than when OP started this thread.

So my forecast in this thread two years ago was very precise (see posting No 21) 🙂.

Same here. I bought an MP for 1500 EUR, sold it for 2500 EUR one year later. Now they are at 3000 EUR or higher. So what?
Same price trend goes for my Contax T2.

I'm just wondering why that is. YouTube/Instagram hype?

Feels like film cameras have the chance to outrageously increase their value while digital ones only plummet.

Why?
It is simple: Increasing demand for film cameras because of the general resurgence in film photography. Photographers suffer from 'digital fatigue' and are going back to the roots. And lots of very young photographers are now exploring the joys of film.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Dralowid]

Just before lockdown I sold my TTL which I had bought new for a very good price which represented a significant increase over what I paid new. It wasn't an investment, it had zinc bubbles etc which did knock the price a bit but not much.

I suspect that if I had tried to sell it the year before it would have been a loss.

 

[JeffS7444]

I can't resist selling higher-value items once I lose interest or no longer use them. I park the funds in nice boring S&P 500 index funds. As a result, my camera collection is more Zenit than Zeiss, more Lomo than Leica, and I like that just fine. For the most part, growth of the S&P 500 has handily outstripped any price increases of Leica cameras.