Whats preventing CV from going 'upmarket'?

[-kk-]

there's been a lot of talk in the last few days about Leica's future direction, which got me thinking about CV's future as well.

Specifically, is there anything that is preventing CV from producing a 'premium' bessa? I know there's the 'arrrangement' with Zeiss with the ikon, but I for one would LOVE to own an eg all brass bessa that will match the weight of leica M. Pointless you say? well, since lots of people equate weight with quality (as far as i can see in rangefinder customers), i think this might be an interesting venture. Im not a fan of the zeiss ikon from an aesthetic point of view, much prefer the utalitarian look of the bessa (this is just my personal opinion/ taste).

I dont know enough about camera consturction or indeed the market to suggest anything concrete, this is more a thinking out loud question.

I know there's been banter about digital, but im talking strictly film for now. Digital for CV is like a stab in the dark right now, but i can see them cornering the film rf market, if they havent already. Volume wise, they may be there already (in terms of NEW product purchases).

Would be curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[RF-Addict]

I think it is too late to venture into a new body for an upscale film CV camera.

The smart thing for them is to focus on a digital rangefinder that offers more than the current set of characters do (the M8 and the RD-1). Such a development would ONLY make sense if they are trying to capture a mass market and not a small niche like the true dedicated RF folks here.

I just don't know if CV is willing and ready for such a new venture.

We shall see, I guess!

 

[Avotius]

It seems to me that cv is not really interested in the vanity market. All their cameras and lenses are form following function, same with the zeiss's IMO. But that said I think what cosina should do is either produce their discontinued screw mount lenses with m mount versions, maybe with a few tweaks or size reductions or follow the path they started before with their canon ef mount 125mm lens and maybe put out a nokton 50 1.5 in ef mount or some of their other lenses as well. The market may be small but cosina is playing the small market right now anyway.

 

[kuvvy]

Good answers guys, I tend to agree and besides Leica have just lauched 4 budget range lenses. So maybe Leica are coming down market to meet our pockets.

 

[pizzahut88]

An up-market Bessa will not sell.

It is suicidal.

Time and time again . . . on many Japanese forum,
people prefer to buy a similarly priced used M6 as opposed to a new Zeiss Ikon.

The Japs loves Leica . . . both used and new.


Nothing wrong with the Zeiss Ikon.
I had one, loved it.

 

[Roger Hicks]

What would be the advantage to CV?

They make excellent cameras and lenses at a very good price under the Voigtländer label, and even better cameras and lenses at a higher price under the Zeiss Ikon label.

And as a review in the British Journal of Photography put it, if all three lines -- Voigtländer, ZI, Leica -- were made by the same manufacturer, their prices would still be about the same, and reflect their market positions.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[varjag]

There is also a technical difficulty to radically changing the chassis: investment in new tooling.

 

[John Noble]

There is also a technical difficulty to radically changing the chassis: investment in new tooling.

CNC machining is making this concept obsolete, especially for smaller parts. These days, a good deal of "tooling" is 3D models drawn by CAD jockeys who dump the resulting files into CNC mills and lathes. The CAD guys aren't free, to be sure, but they are a lot faster than a bunch of old school tool and die makers.

 

[JTK]

Here's CV's digital "rangefinder" competition...as much a "rangefinder" as Contax G was...hope mine gets delivered in a month or three, per Amazon:

http://blog.paran.com/foveon/24785998

...compares resolution and noise at iso 800 etc for 5D, GRDII, and Sigma DP1 and provides more DP1 detail than I've seen before...depicts their relative sensor size ...

CV would probably bet there was a market for its current bulky design, modifying 12, 15, and other lenses for digital per Leica...if CV (or Leica) used Sigma sensor they wouldn't have to do Leica's color filter workaround. Note Sigma's neutral greys.

 

[kshapero]

Off subject: I don't know if it is me or what? But should a rangefinder digital or not have a veiwfinder, Bessa L and T notwithstanding? I have owned a number of small digital point and shoots, even with IS and I still get blurry photos. Two reasons I suspect. One is weight, there is none for stablizing the camera and 2 with no viewfinder I compose by extending my arms to look at the screen on the back of the camera, which adds to the lack of stablization. So I find myself using the flash for that deer in the headlights look. EEK.

 

[varjag]

CNC machining is making this concept obsolete, especially for smaller parts. These days, a good deal of "tooling" is 3D models drawn by CAD jockeys who dump the resulting files into CNC mills and lathes. The CAD guys aren't free, to be sure, but they are a lot faster than a bunch of old school tool and die makers.

You don't do chassis by CNC, because:
- It means milling from a solid, camera sized block of metal, removing 95% of material
- It means a lot of unnecessary wear to cutter heads
- It means time, which is very expensive for multi-axis machines you'd need for such a job.

The only manufacturer making cameras this way I know of is Alpa. You can check their prices, and ask yourself how many would be willing to pay even half of that for a Bessa.

In mass production moldings/castings surpass CNC pretty quickly, and even low scale manufacturers like Leica find them more economical. That's why R9 looks like R8 and probably like R10, and that's why we shouldn't expect big exterior design departures from M8 in M9.

 

[Roger Hicks]

CNC machining is making this concept obsolete, especially for smaller parts. These days, a good deal of "tooling" is 3D models drawn by CAD jockeys who dump the resulting files into CNC mills and lathes. The CAD guys aren't free, to be sure, but they are a lot faster than a bunch of old school tool and die makers.

Surely, though, CNC only makes sense for relatively small runs of expensive equipment, e.g. the Leica top-plate CNC milled from a big brass billet, or Alpa bodies CNC machined from light alloy? As soon as you are looking at selling a product in large numbers for the minimum realistic price, surely traditional die-casting-plus-machining makes more sense?

Or am I out of date on this one?

EDIT: I see that Eugene has already weighed in more authoritatively than I.

Cheers,

R.

 

[kshapero]

I won't buy a digital P&S that doesn't have a finder, for the reason you describe. Smashing the camera into your head is the best way to create a stable platform.

I have noticed in the digital P&S world there is optical finders (very tiny) and EVF, electronic VF. Anyone have a take on these two? I do need a small P&S for my pocket (but it is a fairly large pocket).

 

[januaryman]

I have a Canon S3 IS with EV and I don't like using that, but it works. I have a Canon A620 with a small viewfinder and I like the viewfinder better. But when walking about, the ability to go from a wide angle to super zoom is just too intoxicating to allow me to give up the S3. Everywhere, in everything, there are trade offs. You decide what you need and work from there.

I have noticed in the digital P&S world there is optical finders (very tiny) and EVF, electronic VF. Anyone have a take on these two? I do need a small P&S for my pocket (but it is a fairly large pocket).

 

[Krosya]

I think the only thing Cosina could do to improve their camera line, other than go digital and do that quick, is to make a Bessa with a long RF base. The ones they make now are fine for some of the slower and wide lenses they make, but not the faster ones.

 

[pbo14]

Hi all first time poster so be gentle. How about this for a possible new direction, for Cosina. Remove the viewfinder so that you can increase the base length of the rangefinder link the focus information to an auxiliary finder using livewire. Lens frame lines would be automatically selected; parallax corrected and zooms to more convenient sizes for focusing. Longer lens are now useable. I came up with this without the use of alcohol; I may need to lie down in a darkroom, there something wrong.

 

[RF-Addict]

I used digital cameras with EVF and small "normal" viewfinders. I do NOT like the EVFs - they are slow and somehow take away the pleasure of photography for me. Itis more like shootinga video with these finders. The small view finder cameras (like the G7, G9) are much better, BUT those VFs don't show you the exact picture you are taking. For critical work I use the LCD - in fact I use mostly the LCD. Once you get used to it. it's really no big deal. I can handhold the G9 easily down to 1/15 sec using the LCD. I use the neckstrap around my neck, extend the camera, so that the strap is very tight, look at the LCD and take the shot. No issues with camera shake.

 

[kevin m]

The small Ricohs, the GR-D and the GX-100, have hotshoes both for flash, and to mount an optical finder. People are getting amazing results with them... 🙂

 

[GeneW]

Sheesh! After my Fed-2, Zorki 4, and Kiev 4a I thought my R3A was upmarket! 🙂

Gene

 

[ferider]

Actually, compared to 3rd party SLR lenses and prices, CV is up market.
Just not compared to Leica.