Fausto
semper ubi sub ubi
A couple of folks around here have said the M2 is "quintessential M", and I'm wondering why.
Is it the simplified rangefinder, or the 35 frameline?
I like my M3's frame-counter window, and the lens-release guard, but I wonder 'Am I missing something?' Do they feel different in use?
Is it the simplified rangefinder, or the 35 frameline?
I like my M3's frame-counter window, and the lens-release guard, but I wonder 'Am I missing something?' Do they feel different in use?
FrankS
Registered User
The M3 is perfect for 50mm lenses (and 90 and 135), while the M2 is perfect for 35mm lenses (and 50 and 90).
I have both. They feel the same in use. It's just that 35mm is such a popular focal length, and the M2 has those framelines.
I have both. They feel the same in use. It's just that 35mm is such a popular focal length, and the M2 has those framelines.
Vincenzo Maielli
Well-known
I own a Leica M2. This camera have a normal rangefinder, not semplified. Simply, is different the rangefinder magnification (0,72x versus 0,91x) because the finder of the Leica M2 start from 35 mm, while the finder of the M3 start from 50 mm. The precision of framing and focusing is equal.
The frame counter of the Leica M2 is external and with manual operating zero setting, while the frame counter of the M3 is inner and automatic zero setting. This is the real difference, but in the practice is true ininfluent.
The build quality is at same level and i find better the M2 for the street photography, because the M2 allow the use of the 35 mm focal lenght directly in the finder. For this reason, the Leica M2 was prefererred by many professional reporters and photojournalists, in the sixties. The Leica M3 is better for the portrait photography, due her major rangefinder base lenght.
After all, are two great cameras, complementary and not antagonist, each with proper field of use.
Ciao.
Vincenzo
The frame counter of the Leica M2 is external and with manual operating zero setting, while the frame counter of the M3 is inner and automatic zero setting. This is the real difference, but in the practice is true ininfluent.
The build quality is at same level and i find better the M2 for the street photography, because the M2 allow the use of the 35 mm focal lenght directly in the finder. For this reason, the Leica M2 was prefererred by many professional reporters and photojournalists, in the sixties. The Leica M3 is better for the portrait photography, due her major rangefinder base lenght.
After all, are two great cameras, complementary and not antagonist, each with proper field of use.
Ciao.
Vincenzo
reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
I've noticed in pics of M2/M3 that all models of M2 and only some models of M3 have the lever beneath the VF for frameline selection(?) - some M3 are w/o. Are these early M3 models and the later M3 all came with this selector lever? or...? Is it a big loss to those w/o? or no biggie.
...pardon the rapid fire questions... just tryin' to quiz n' learn.
thanx
...pardon the rapid fire questions... just tryin' to quiz n' learn.
thanx
FrankS
Registered User
The very earliest M3 production had no frameline selector lever. Later M3 production included this lever, as did all M2 production (which bean later than the early M3's.)
Early M2 models lacked self timer levers though, and had rewind buttons instead of levers. This changed to include ST levers and rewind buttons changed to levers in later production of M2's.
Early M2 models lacked self timer levers though, and had rewind buttons instead of levers. This changed to include ST levers and rewind buttons changed to levers in later production of M2's.
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reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
Thanks Frank. Can't see the lack of lever being a big deal, but then I've never shot with either. Would *no lever* be a deal-breaker?
richard_l
Well-known
Also, the M2 has a very uncluttered viewfinder: only a single set of (thin) framelines is visible at a time. (Those thick 50mm framelines are always visible in the M3's VF.)FrankS said:
Richard
thomasw_
Well-known
the preview lever and self timer lever are not on all M2 and M3 models. there exist models of M3s without a self timer lever, and there exist M3s without a preview lever; also there are M2s without a self timer and having no rewind lever, instead a button pushed rewind.
Unclutteredness is another reason many users love their M2s: the M2 VF only shows 1 set of framelines, according to which FL lens is detected, i.e., 35-50-90; whereas the 50 framelines are always in view on the M3 even when mounting the 135 or 90 lens.
But as far as I am concerned, the M3 is the finest 50 VF that I have tried; even many MP .85 VF users attest to this.
Unclutteredness is another reason many users love their M2s: the M2 VF only shows 1 set of framelines, according to which FL lens is detected, i.e., 35-50-90; whereas the 50 framelines are always in view on the M3 even when mounting the 135 or 90 lens.
But as far as I am concerned, the M3 is the finest 50 VF that I have tried; even many MP .85 VF users attest to this.
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FrankS
Registered User
The rewind button is certainly not a deal-breaker. I have a rewind button, no self timer lever M2.
The M3 viewfinder system is a more complex optical arrangement of lenses compared to the M2 viewfinder optical system.
The M3 viewfinder system is a more complex optical arrangement of lenses compared to the M2 viewfinder optical system.
reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
Sorry Frank, didn't make myself clear. I was talking about the framelines lever. (Yeah, the rewind would be no biggie to me either.) But it sounds like it would just depend on what lenses one was planning to use would determine the [slightly] more preferable choice of M2 or M3. Good info guys -- big thanks!!
FrankS
Registered User
If I could have only 1 Leica M body, it would be the M2 because I do use 35mm lenses sometimes. Since I am not limited to just one Leica body, I also have the M3 which is amazing with a 50mm lens, which happens to be my favourite focal length.
thomasw_
Well-known
oh yea, another difference in the m2 VF is the DOF indicators on the rangfinder patch. they work well and many M2 users swear by them.
But the dealer breaker for the M2 or M3 is in the VF: be sure it is bright, clear and that the rangefinder patch contrasts well.
But the dealer breaker for the M2 or M3 is in the VF: be sure it is bright, clear and that the rangefinder patch contrasts well.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The lens preview lever was always on the M2/M3 - the self timer was an "optional" extra on the M2. Most M2 users bought the camera with the selftimer, but I have several late (11xx xxx) m2's without the self timer. I rarely use that device so it is no big deal for me. Leica would install the self timer "after the fact' in the 60's. Those were the days when you could have a camera "a la carte'd" after you bought it. You could have a Leicavit MP shaft installed in your M3 or later have your camera converted to the M-motor as well as have it painted black by the factory.
For the paint job you had to send the camera or the top plate to an authorized leica facility and they would install all black parts as well as engrave the serial number from your chrome camera on the top plate.The chrome top-plate was then supposed to be destroyed (to prevent identical numbers on two cameras). Most of the "shops' kept boxes with these tops around and occasionally would grind out the serial number and do quick fixes on press cameras that came in with badly dinged or dented tops.
For the paint job you had to send the camera or the top plate to an authorized leica facility and they would install all black parts as well as engrave the serial number from your chrome camera on the top plate.The chrome top-plate was then supposed to be destroyed (to prevent identical numbers on two cameras). Most of the "shops' kept boxes with these tops around and occasionally would grind out the serial number and do quick fixes on press cameras that came in with badly dinged or dented tops.
FrankS
Registered User
Just Googled "M3 variations" and came up with this:
M3, first type SNR: 700,000 - 785,800. 1954-55. double stroke. no field selector lever. rewind knob with red slot. glass pressure plate. frame counter: black to 740,000, white thereafter. triangular strap lugs. shutter speeds: 1, 1/2, 1/5, 1/10...
M3, second type SNR: 785,801 - 854,000. 1955-56. double stroke. field selector lever, and thereafter. rewind knob with one or two red dots. glass pressure plate to 844,000, metal thereafter. strap lugs as above. shutter speeds as above.
M3, third type SNR: 854,001 - 1,206,999. 1957-68. double stroke to 915,250, single stroke thereafter. modern shutter speeds: 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15... rewind knob with two red dots. strap lugs triangular to 915,250, round thereafter.
Here's the link to give credit where credit is due: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00LdsU
Here's a link to info about M2's with/without rewind buttons and with/without self timers: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00J5O9
M3, first type SNR: 700,000 - 785,800. 1954-55. double stroke. no field selector lever. rewind knob with red slot. glass pressure plate. frame counter: black to 740,000, white thereafter. triangular strap lugs. shutter speeds: 1, 1/2, 1/5, 1/10...
M3, second type SNR: 785,801 - 854,000. 1955-56. double stroke. field selector lever, and thereafter. rewind knob with one or two red dots. glass pressure plate to 844,000, metal thereafter. strap lugs as above. shutter speeds as above.
M3, third type SNR: 854,001 - 1,206,999. 1957-68. double stroke to 915,250, single stroke thereafter. modern shutter speeds: 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15... rewind knob with two red dots. strap lugs triangular to 915,250, round thereafter.
Here's the link to give credit where credit is due: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00LdsU
Here's a link to info about M2's with/without rewind buttons and with/without self timers: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00J5O9
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
My feeling that the M2 is the better camera is based purely on the 35/50/90 focal lengths. Rangefinders excel at short focal lengths and are a compromise at 135mm. I have used a 135mm once on an M and to me it felt a bit like sitting at the back of the car park at the drive in ... I could see what was happening but wished like hell I was closer!
Fausto
semper ubi sub ubi
Now I get it. I have M2 enlightenment. Knew I could count on you guys!
Beginning to feel a strange M2-shaped hole in my life.....
Beginning to feel a strange M2-shaped hole in my life.....
FrankS
Registered User
Keith said:My feeling that the M2 is the better camera is based purely on the 35/50/90 focal lengths. Rangefinders excel at short focal lengths and are a compromise at 135mm. I have used a 135mm once on an M and to me it felt a bit like sitting at the back of the car park at the drive in ... I could see what was happening but wished like hell I was closer!
The M2 is a more versatile camera given the 35mm framelines, but the M3 with a 50 is perfection.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
My M3 originally had no PV lever (s/n 755xxx), but was converted - it also now has a metal pressure plate and is SS rather than the original DS.
I had the PV lever done because I really wanted it...just 'cuz? I thought it might be useful. In real life, I have to tell you that in 30+ years I have probably used it two or three times, so in my mind it would be far from a deal breaker!
I agree with Frank that for a first body, the M2 is probably a better choice due to the easy use of 35mm lenses.
I had the PV lever done because I really wanted it...just 'cuz? I thought it might be useful. In real life, I have to tell you that in 30+ years I have probably used it two or three times, so in my mind it would be far from a deal breaker!
I agree with Frank that for a first body, the M2 is probably a better choice due to the easy use of 35mm lenses.
ferider
Veteran
I have not tried an M[45] yet. But compared to the M6, I find the 50 and 90mm framelines in the M2 much easier to use. They seem larger and "crisper" ... cannt explain better why.
I agree with Frank, one M only, it would be an M2. But you got to have
at least one M3
Roland.
I agree with Frank, one M only, it would be an M2. But you got to have
at least one M3
Roland.
ernstk
Retro Renaissance
M2 Preview lever
M2 Preview lever
I have an M2 that I use with a Leicameter MR. I use the preview lever to bring up the 90 frameline (if I'm using my 35 or 50 lenses) as this equals the angle of view of the meter and gives a useful selective metering area.
Regards
Ernst
M2 Preview lever
I have an M2 that I use with a Leicameter MR. I use the preview lever to bring up the 90 frameline (if I'm using my 35 or 50 lenses) as this equals the angle of view of the meter and gives a useful selective metering area.
Regards
Ernst