strange photo negative spacing with Kiev 3a, Contax 3

[mravigna]

I recently purchased a Kiev 3 a) (1957) and a Contax 3 (1937) and have shot one film with both cameras. Can anyone tell me why the spacing between photos on the negatives varies so much. The problem occurs at the beginning of a role of film (first 7 or 8 shots) 😕 where the spacing is quite wide (more than a quarter inch) and then seems settle down to a 'normal' kind of spacing throughout the rest of the role. Why does it do this and why only at the beginning of a role? Both cameras did this.

I also own a Kiev 2 and Contax 2, and both are fine and don't have this problem. I have never seen this on my Zorki's or Fed cameras.

I would appreciate any comments on this matter. Thanks

P.S. I also own a Kiev 4 a) which had this problem with the first role, although not as evident and not necessarily at the beginning of a role. My second film with this camera seems to be better. Another unsolved mystery.

 

[wolves3012]

This has been discussed in several threads. Consensus is that it's largely caused by the wind-clutch, which needs to be clean and set up properly. Zorki and FED cameras wind the film oppositely and rarely seem to suffer from the problem. With Kievs the film winds in such a direction that, as it builds up, it allows film to pull past the sprocket teeth if the clutch has too little slip.

I have two Kievs; both have had the clutches cleaned and both or them give even spacings throughout the roll.

 

[mravigna]

I read somewhere that home made take up spools can cause spacing problems

I read somewhere that home made take up spools can cause spacing problems

Thanks for answering my question Wolves. I also read that using home made take up spools can cause this problem especially at the beginning of a role. I am not sure why this would happen. Both the Kiev 3 and Contax 3 have home made take up spools made from old film canisters. The other two cameras, the Kiev 2 and Contax 2 are using factory spools. Any ideas on this and why this would happen?

 

[Stu W]

We've already collectively beaten this one to death. Common sense says that unlike a 120 or 220 camera, the frames are spaced by the sprocket wheel. The sprocket wheel turns a fixed amount with each wind. So the film should advance the same? Well, for many it doesn't. We never, really actually solved this as I recall. Do a search and I'm sure you'll find plenty of threads. Stu

 

[xayraa33]

Noel (Xmas) had a good write up on fixing this problem.

 

[mravigna]

This is what I would have thought

This is what I would have thought

Exactly what I would have thought. The film advances with the sprockets and not the take up spool; but for some reason the spacing problem only happens with the three cameras (out of five) that have home made spools and only for about 7 frames at the beginning of each role. If its a clutch problem, then why is it consistently doing this only at the beginning of a role? The spacing is even (about a quarter inch) throughout the first 7 or 8 frames and then fixes itself for the rest of the role.

 

[wolves3012]

The sprocket does advance the film, correct. The purpose of the spool is simply to take up what film comes past the sprocket. As the roll progresses, however, film build up on it and it needs to rotate less and less for each frame's-worth of film. The sprocket is geared directly to the wind-knob, one turn on the knob equals one turn on the sprocket equals one frame of film plus about 2mm spacing.

So the inescapable conclusion is that if the frame spacing varies, the sprockets are not metering the film correctly. The pressure rollers, clutch and (maybe) spool type are all implicated in this but no-one on here has yet found the definitive cause. General consensus is that the clutch must work properly and the pressure rollers must be working properly to stand a chance of even spacing.

As for why your cameras show the spacings they do, I really cannot say with conviction. My two Kievs both have plastic spools, which may or may not be original (they are both late examples), and the spacing on both of them is absolutley constant and correct.

All I would suggest, if you want to cure the problem, is to start by cleaning and lightly lubricating the clutches. Check that they do not pull too strongly afterwards and go from there.

 

[Spider67]

Thanks in advance could you just gibe a descriptio
n of the clutches (what they look like) as I have no idea where to find them.
Thanks!
It sounds stupid but yes I am "clutchless"

 

[TVphotog]

The clutches that everyone is refering to is actually a series of washers and a spring. They reside just above the tongs on the film advance side. The shaft that the fork is attached to runs up into the top casing and has a toothed gear on the top. This gear is what connects the forks and the spool to the advance knob/shutter speed selector. In order to clean the clutch, you need to unscrew the fork from it's shaft. When the fork comes loose the washers and spring may fall out. Becareful, as you need to remember the order in which the washers came out. Clean the washers and the spring. Reinstall them and give them a light coat of decent oil. That should help with the frame spacing. It may not cure it, but it should make it better.

 

[fidget]

But.....his problem is that the spacing is more at the beginning of the film, then settles down to normal spacing. Does this imply that the sprocket can also slip over the film as well as having the film dragged over the sprocket?

I was under the impression that the bad spacing, the overlap, was what we kicked around for ages and ages.
If any of my Kievs had a spacing which was a little too much, i would be very pleased. Overlapping frames is nasty, keeps the Kievs in the box (to go).

 

[mravigna]

I have no problems with overlapping frames

I have no problems with overlapping frames

The problem would seem to be that the sprockets are not properly metering the film space but only at the beginning of the role up until some film has moved on to the spool. I suspect that the spools I use have something to do (or a combination of the clutch and spool) with this but I am not sure. I am almost sure that the film is not jumping or sliding over the sprokets. The spacing between between the frames would vary much more. The spacing seems to be about 8 or 9 mm up until the 7th or 8th frame and then everything seems to be normal at about 2mm in between frames for the rest of the roles.

 

[TVphotog]

Nevermind....