Leica LTM Leica II 1932/3

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
dee

dee

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In my new exploratoin of early Leicas , I came across a 1st batch Leica II with the window in the back , then , on e-bay , a 2nd batch Leica II , both black nickel in similar fine lightly brassed patina condition . I indulged in both ...
I did not consider if this is unusual to find consequtive batch Leica II s by chance - I wonder how many survive from this era ? Are there a lot about ? I have not seen that many 32/33 cameras adverised .

dee
 
I have a 1932 Leica II and just love it - I'm waiting for the postman to bring me a 1933 Leica III.

With my Standard (& if you squint a bit) I will have a I, II & III in black. Had to sell my silver IIIa and IIIc to get these together, but I think it means I'm finished on Barnack bodies - oh, unless I stumble over a black IIIa at a give-away price, of course 😉
 
Hi Dee,

I have a black II (89something) from the big batch. I don't think they are that uncommon but it is nice to find them in original condition and unmolested.

They are like buses, nothing for ages then two come along at the same time

Hi John,

I have two black IIIa s, conversions of course, one pictured here (real serial number is from the same batch as the II mentioned above). I am looking for a black IIIb!

Michael



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I guess you could cal that being firmly in the black ... and surrounded by USSR cameras - in the red ?
Don't think that I would sell my 3x IIIc , especially the 1946/7 '' Birthday ''- 60 , like me one , nor the pair IIIc / IIIf red dial bought from a collection through R.G.Lewis in London ... they are lovely , but have little dints to keep them reasonable !

i may indulge in a copy Standard though ... sacrilege ! ?

dee
 
One question - were Leicas engraved white ? Both mine have lost all colour - like dirty brass , smeered a bit in places - not unpleasant but it looks as if it was always brass .

I am a lot ignorant about it all .

dee
 
Dee: photos of the Leica II and Leica III in Rogliatti show that the engraving is white paint-filled. Lager has a photo of a III that is paint-filled as well. Lager's photo of a II looks to me to not be paint-filled--which I assume could be the result of wear over the years (or it could have left the factory that way, I don't know).
 
Early black Leicas do not not paint filled engraved text. The engraving is filled with something called, I think, Woods Metal, or a name like it. This is apparently very difficult to restore or replicate so is best left alone. I think it can be brought back to a shine by the application of heat but I would advise against the experiment! The serial number stamping is not normally filled.

Michael
(a little knowledge is a dangerous thing)
 
Dralowid said:
Early black Leicas do not not paint filled engraved text. The engraving is filled with something called, I think, Woods Metal, or a name like it. This is apparently very difficult to restore or replicate so is best left alone. I think it can be brought back to a shine by the application of heat but I would advise against the experiment! The serial number stamping is not normally filled.

Michael
(a little knowledge is a dangerous thing)
Click to expand...

Woods Metal?

That`s interesting, something I didn`t know, I wonder if that was the same filling that was used in the WW2 era "Grey" paint IIIC`s?
(it`s a slighty raised up in the script and an off white eggshell colored material)
BTW: Beautiful Leica II you have 😀

Black IIIb? I don`t think their was such animal, unless they were Betriebskameras?

But, like the IIIa I didn`t think they were painted black, chrome kicked in really bigtime after 1936, the last mass production Leica`s in black paint were the III`s up to like 1940 and then later limited very small runs of IIIC "Flat Top" 46'/47' Betriebskameras
and finally the IIIF and IIIG both for the Swedish Army

Tom
 
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Tom,

Yup, Woods Metal, or something similar was mentioned to me by Peter at CRR Luton when we discussing the ressurection of a Leica III.

The business about black Leicas after II and III is me being somewhat disingenuous...

There is no such thing as a black IIIa unless it is a conversion. Allegedly a batch of numbers were set aside but never used.

A black IIIb would most likely be a conversion from a I done after the time the two eye pieces came together. Theoretically possible and something I'm looking for. BTW I'm also looking for a black IIf (again some sort of conversion)

I have a black IIIc painted by CRR which is 'the user'. It doesn't look like one of your 'K's because the viewfinder windows are black. Originaly Peter was going to strip the chrome back to nickel on the knobs so it would be 'in the style' of the earlier cameras but this didn't work out since apparently the early postwar cameras have no nickel beneath the chrome.

I think the black and grey 'K's and the later black conversions have text filled in with what was white paint that has gone off white and a looks matt. We tried to match this on the IIIc but it never looked right.

Something that would pass for a black IIIf has recently arrived from Germany. This is in fact a black III converted postwar to have the IIIf shutter (all of it) synch, knob with film guide etc. and late vulcanite. Unusual housing with accessory shoe very slightly raised to accomodate the later shutter.

Swedish black IIIfs and IIIgs are 'Holy Grail' stuff, often called 'Three Crowns'.

As you can probably tell I have a bad case of 'conversion acquisition'...and I'm edging closer to those people in Russia...

Michael

The only silver camera I have is an M...
 
WOW !
Fascinating - and I just thought it was white paint worn away - that explains how it seems to have seeped and blurred the engraving - digi box lead missing , but will post pics in time .
To be honest , I love the ''extension '' at lowish cost , of the Russian industry offering fantastic Leica copies in finishes which I would never wish on my Leicas ...

But a black or grey refurbished Leica III c would be a dream user camera !

Thanks for all the info -
dee
 
Dralowid said:
Tom,

Yup, Woods Metal, or something similar was mentioned to me by Peter at CRR Luton when we discussing the ressurection of a Leica III.

The business about black Leicas after II and III is me being somewhat disingenuous...

There is no such thing as a black IIIa unless it is a conversion. Allegedly a batch of numbers were set aside but never used.

A black IIIb would most likely be a conversion from a I done after the time the two eye pieces came together. Theoretically possible and something I'm looking for. BTW I'm also looking for a black IIf (again some sort of conversion)

I have a black IIIc painted by CRR which is 'the user'. It doesn't look like one of your 'K's because the viewfinder windows are black. Originaly Peter was going to strip the chrome back to nickel on the knobs so it would be 'in the style' of the earlier cameras but this didn't work out since apparently the early postwar cameras have no nickel beneath the chrome.

I think the black and grey 'K's and the later black conversions have text filled in with what was white paint that has gone off white and a looks matt. We tried to match this on the IIIc but it never looked right.

Something that would pass for a black IIIf has recently arrived from Germany. This is in fact a black III converted postwar to have the IIIf shutter (all of it) synch, knob with film guide etc. and late vulcanite. Unusual housing with accessory shoe very slightly raised to accomodate the later shutter.

Swedish black IIIfs and IIIgs are 'Holy Grail' stuff, often called 'Three Crowns'.

As you can probably tell I have a bad case of 'conversion acquisition'...and I'm edging closer to those people in Russia...

Michael

The only silver camera I have is an M...
Click to expand...

Michael,

Thanks so much for the informaton, I`m studying the whole IIIC K "Grey" process and construction and I`m also going to call CRR over there and talk with them as well, trying to figure out the fine details, while I want to "restore" a badly kept K body to like new again to use as a exotic "user".....while I found using the a really "fine condidtion" original camera on a regular weekly basis shooting my pinups was too risky to do

I did run two rolls through the original camera before I sent it back out west to it`s former owner, who is now researching the production style and quality of what just went into the Grey paint cameras so that someday I can restore a camera up to 1945 standards and no matter that I still handle everything with care, know in the back of my mind the cameras a restored original one, just like anything else it SHOULD be used and not held in a china cabinet and just looked at, the IIIC K cameras were made for shooting and shooting well 🙂

Tom

PS: Speaking of conversions......I have ALWAYS been a fan of Leica conversions....while strange cameras were made from older models

Maybe the ultimate conversion is a IIIC K "Grey" to IIIF BD
Leni Riefenstahl`s IIIC K was one of these
(she bought it at Leitz NYC in 1951)
it had ORIGINALLY been a US Army issued camera and either the former officer or she personally had it converted to IIIF BD

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Michael - have you ever seen a Leica IIIC "stepper rewind" to IIIF BD ST? (self timer)

I have NEVER seen one before, it could be the "poor man`s" Leica IIID, has anyone seen one of these conversions? - would be an expensive conversion if anyone tried doing it unless you could find a IIIF RD ST parts camera?
 
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Dralowid said:
Swedish black IIIfs and IIIgs are 'Holy Grail' stuff, often called 'Three Crowns'.
Click to expand...
In case anybody's curious, the "Three Crowns" (in Swedish "Tre Kronor") is the national emblem of Sweden.
 
Metal (Woods?) bead as foundation to Leica Lettering

Metal (Woods?) bead as foundation to Leica Lettering

As I am working on the restoration of the "V-2 Leica", LeicaTom and I have maintained a conversation about what I am finding. Recently, I noticed that the lettering on the top plate was NOT paint filled engraving, but rather some form of overcoated metal.

Now that the plate is clean enough to resolve the metal, I thought that this discussion might benefit from an image of the stuff.

One of the chemical treatments that I know of is the treatment of lead glasses with acetic acid to generate a substance known as "sugar of lead" or lead acetate. Bismuth, cadmium also form similar compounds with proper application of chemistry.

My current surmise is that the top plates were painted first, then engraved, etched clean in the groove of the letters, back-plated with some alloy to fill the engraving and treated with some chemistry to make the creamy appearing coating which was then heat stabilized.

Good stuff, gang.
 
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Dralowid said:
Hi John,

I have two black IIIa s, conversions of course, one pictured here (real serial number is from the same batch as the II mentioned above). I am looking for a black IIIb!

Michael
QUOTE]

Hi Michael,

Nice camera - I will have to lok out for one of those! My II is (I believe) from the first production batch (5-digit serial) - no charge in the digithing (and lost the charging lead) so pics will have to wait.

The debate on genuine black IIIa bodies is interesting - I have heard (from Ivor Matanle) that around 300 were actually produced - could this just be that he has seen the serial nos, rather than evidence of physical cameras?

I think I could become addicted to black bodies.................
Click to expand...
 
Maybe the ultimate conversion is a IIIC K "Grey" to IIIF BD
Leni Riefenstahl`s IIIC K was one of these

Was this in a Westlicht auction at some time?

It's an interesting camera but what interests me most is that under the shutter dial there is a plate screwed on for the flash scale. This is not uncommon and can be seen on many conversions to IIIf. The one I have recently received has a replacement casing to accomodate all this. Will post pics in due course.

Tom, I have never seen the conversion you mention but...you never know.

I recently missed out on a badly pitted stepped IIIc with red blinds, (39something) no markings.

Made the classic auction mistake of thinking no-one had noticed it except me!

Re Woods Metal, yes talk to Peter at CRR. I think he can burnish it up by heating the top plate. I think he may even be able to replace it but this is way beyond my ken.

Michael
 
Dralowid said:
Maybe the ultimate conversion is a IIIC K "Grey" to IIIF BD
Leni Riefenstahl`s IIIC K was one of these

Was this in a Westlicht auction at some time?

It's an interesting camera but what interests me most is that under the shutter dial there is a plate screwed on for the flash scale. This is not uncommon and can be seen on many conversions to IIIf. The one I have recently received has a replacement casing to accomodate all this. Will post pics in due course.

Tom, I have never seen the conversion you mention but...you never know.

I recently missed out on a badly pitted stepped IIIc with red blinds, (39something) no markings.

Made the classic auction mistake of thinking no-one had noticed it except me!

Re Woods Metal, yes talk to Peter at CRR. I think he can burnish it up by heating the top plate. I think he may even be able to replace it but this is way beyond my ken.

Michael
Click to expand...

Yes, her camera sold at Westlicht for I think something like $15 or $17k? A bargain

The "Black" 1946/47 IIIC Betriebskameras looked just like that too with that screw on plate for the IIIF BD conversion.....

Hummmm Red Blinds/Curtains in a 39xxxx series? I think the 9`s wrong, was it 36xxxx something?
Because 39xxxx something would be December1945/Jan/Feb 1946 series cameras

Red Curtains ended somewhere in the 37xxxx series (1941) and it seems there`s like 5,000 more red curtains out there for sale , then they really did ever make, you have to be carefull, I saw fakes 20 years ago........
The former eastern bloc countries are really fixin up "fake" IIIC Red Curtains, which are BTW useless cameras to shoot with, shutter looks pretty, but is a big light leaker!

Tom
 
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