Trigeek
Member
Hi All,
I just joined the forum, and may well join the Leica club. Currently, I have a Canon 5D with a number of L series lenses. I have no real quibbles with the camera, and it has been quite good to me. But as time goes on, I have been finding that I am becoming unhappy with it's size and weight. About 6 months ago, I bought a Canon G7 to carry around with me all the time, due to it's smaller size, and have become quite fond of it... well except for the image quality. Would really like to get a camera that would marry the image quality of the 5D with the compact size of the G7. Enter the M8... not as small as the G7, but much better that the 5D and with better image quality to boot (than the 5D). On top of this, I have always wanted a Leica... since I got into photography 30 years ago. Never could afford it... probably can't now, but ready to take the plunge.
So... I would like to make the change but have a couple of questions that I was hoping you could help me with.
1) The reviews have pointed to a number of issues with the camera (heck, what camera doesn't). Like freezing, white balance, IR to name a few. I know Leica has been making improvements, so what can I expect from a recent build body? IR seems to be fixed with the IR/CUT filter on the lens.
2) If any of you have switched, what did you find to be the best way to sell your existing gear? I know some forums have For Sale sections, eBay, PhotoGon, etc... wouldlike to make this as quick and painless as possible.
Thanks for reading.
I just joined the forum, and may well join the Leica club. Currently, I have a Canon 5D with a number of L series lenses. I have no real quibbles with the camera, and it has been quite good to me. But as time goes on, I have been finding that I am becoming unhappy with it's size and weight. About 6 months ago, I bought a Canon G7 to carry around with me all the time, due to it's smaller size, and have become quite fond of it... well except for the image quality. Would really like to get a camera that would marry the image quality of the 5D with the compact size of the G7. Enter the M8... not as small as the G7, but much better that the 5D and with better image quality to boot (than the 5D). On top of this, I have always wanted a Leica... since I got into photography 30 years ago. Never could afford it... probably can't now, but ready to take the plunge.
So... I would like to make the change but have a couple of questions that I was hoping you could help me with.
1) The reviews have pointed to a number of issues with the camera (heck, what camera doesn't). Like freezing, white balance, IR to name a few. I know Leica has been making improvements, so what can I expect from a recent build body? IR seems to be fixed with the IR/CUT filter on the lens.
2) If any of you have switched, what did you find to be the best way to sell your existing gear? I know some forums have For Sale sections, eBay, PhotoGon, etc... wouldlike to make this as quick and painless as possible.
Thanks for reading.
Andy Aitken
Registered Loser
Well, welcome to RFF.
The remaining issues with the M8 (well my one anyway) are a) the "freezing/sudden death" thing which happens about 1 or 2 times per month. It's annoying but all you need to do is pop the battery out and back in (takes about 5 seconds). b) the "menu mambo" where the menu goes a bit freaky for a second or 2. No real consequences - just annoying and Leica promise to fix it at the next firmware upgrade, which should be in the next few weeks. c) Poor auto white balance. Only an issue if you shoot JPEG instead of RAW and also promised by Leica to be completely revised in the next firmware. d) Occasional failure to display the last picture taken automatically - you get some nice black and white stripes instead.
I'm pretty sure the next firmware will make most of these well know issues history. Hopefully we will also get SD-HD compatibility.
The IR issue is, indeed, no problem once you've got your IR cut filters - you get 2 with the camera - and have your widest lenses coded.
The remaining issues with the M8 (well my one anyway) are a) the "freezing/sudden death" thing which happens about 1 or 2 times per month. It's annoying but all you need to do is pop the battery out and back in (takes about 5 seconds). b) the "menu mambo" where the menu goes a bit freaky for a second or 2. No real consequences - just annoying and Leica promise to fix it at the next firmware upgrade, which should be in the next few weeks. c) Poor auto white balance. Only an issue if you shoot JPEG instead of RAW and also promised by Leica to be completely revised in the next firmware. d) Occasional failure to display the last picture taken automatically - you get some nice black and white stripes instead.
I'm pretty sure the next firmware will make most of these well know issues history. Hopefully we will also get SD-HD compatibility.
The IR issue is, indeed, no problem once you've got your IR cut filters - you get 2 with the camera - and have your widest lenses coded.
etrigan63
Rangefinder Padawan
To be honest with you, selling my Canon gear (I have a 1DM2 + harem of L glass) was part of my plan. However, bear in mind that the M8, wunderkamera it is, is not always the best choice for certain situations. To that end, I kept my Canon gear and use it when the situation demands.
Case in point: tomorrow I have to photograph about 100 4th graders for a school fair booth project. Sure I could do it with the M8, but I would be more efficient with my 1DMk2. Weight, in this case, is not an issue since the camera will be tripod mounted.
Don't get me wrong. I love my M8 and carry it all the time with me when I go out. It takes great pictures once you learn it. If you are able to streamline your picture taking needs to fit the M8, go for it. Otherwise, you may want to keep the 5D for those times when the M8 is not the right tool.
Case in point: tomorrow I have to photograph about 100 4th graders for a school fair booth project. Sure I could do it with the M8, but I would be more efficient with my 1DMk2. Weight, in this case, is not an issue since the camera will be tripod mounted.
Don't get me wrong. I love my M8 and carry it all the time with me when I go out. It takes great pictures once you learn it. If you are able to streamline your picture taking needs to fit the M8, go for it. Otherwise, you may want to keep the 5D for those times when the M8 is not the right tool.
Ben Z
Veteran
My M8 is a very late number, and so far I haven't had any problems with it, but I could be jinxing myself by saying that 
I have a Canon 20D (with some great Canon lenses, especially primes, but only one "L", the 400/5.6) and no plans to sell it. I've had plenty of time to compare image quality and at least to the print size I'm capable of printing myself (13x19) quite frankly I don't see that the M8 is all that much better. Results from digital vary probably more with post-processing than the camera itself (which now that I think of it was always the case with film too). With the optimal workflow, both cameras produce spectacular results. I'm thinking that when the prices on the 5D, perhaps a Canon factory refurb, drop to around $1500 I'll pick one up. I too find that the 20D (nearly the same size and weight as 5D but includes a built-in flash for fill) and lenses are not so much too heavy as too cumbersome for enjoyable travel, but the M8 and 3-4 lenses fit in a little bag. Still, if I were travelling where I was going to rent a car, and doing a lot of photography in the wide open outdoors I would take the 20D with 3 zooms and a macro.
I have a Canon 20D (with some great Canon lenses, especially primes, but only one "L", the 400/5.6) and no plans to sell it. I've had plenty of time to compare image quality and at least to the print size I'm capable of printing myself (13x19) quite frankly I don't see that the M8 is all that much better. Results from digital vary probably more with post-processing than the camera itself (which now that I think of it was always the case with film too). With the optimal workflow, both cameras produce spectacular results. I'm thinking that when the prices on the 5D, perhaps a Canon factory refurb, drop to around $1500 I'll pick one up. I too find that the 20D (nearly the same size and weight as 5D but includes a built-in flash for fill) and lenses are not so much too heavy as too cumbersome for enjoyable travel, but the M8 and 3-4 lenses fit in a little bag. Still, if I were travelling where I was going to rent a car, and doing a lot of photography in the wide open outdoors I would take the 20D with 3 zooms and a macro.Trigeek
Member
Thanks for the replies. I was thinking of keeping the 5D for macro work. Also, I think given the drop in 5D prices, the resale value would be poor. The rest I think would be fine with the M8. Kind of going thru a "back to basics" thinking. Rather than zooms to cover all the ranges.. I am thinking that I would like to get back to a single fixed focal length (around 35mm to 50mm equiv) and shoot for a year,,, then add a lens. Guess I am feeling overloaded with options. )
)PrisonersDilema
Established
wrong
wrong
I beg to differ. 5D prices have been dropping because the 5D has been around for sometime and there is an impending 5dmk2 or 7D.
I see that you are itching for a change and there is nothing wrong with that. It is your own money and no one can stop you. Hence, really, there is no need t find adequate reasons or support here to do your change. If yiou have made up your mind, change it...M8 should be a great camera.
However, nothwithstanding, I must point out the errors in your reasoning used:
1) 5D images are not in anyway worse than those from the M8. This is even more true for anything above ISO 320.
2) 5D is near the EOL and is very near to a replacement. Compare it with the cost of an M8 now. You will be screaming when an M9 comes about, addressing all the hiccups of the M8, better MP, better everything. What will be your monetary loss with the M9? I think it way more than the 5D loss.
Hence, if you want to change, go ahead and do it and enjoy the M8. Your reasons are not very correct but so what.
wrong
Trigeek said:Thanks for the replies. I was thinking of keeping the 5D for macro work. Also, I think given the drop in 5D prices, the resale value would be poor. The rest I think would be fine with the M8. Kind of going thru a "back to basics" thinking. Rather than zooms to cover all the ranges.. I am thinking that I would like to get back to a single fixed focal length (around 35mm to 50mm equiv) and shoot for a year,,, then add a lens. Guess I am feeling overloaded with options.
I beg to differ. 5D prices have been dropping because the 5D has been around for sometime and there is an impending 5dmk2 or 7D.
I see that you are itching for a change and there is nothing wrong with that. It is your own money and no one can stop you. Hence, really, there is no need t find adequate reasons or support here to do your change. If yiou have made up your mind, change it...M8 should be a great camera.
However, nothwithstanding, I must point out the errors in your reasoning used:
1) 5D images are not in anyway worse than those from the M8. This is even more true for anything above ISO 320.
2) 5D is near the EOL and is very near to a replacement. Compare it with the cost of an M8 now. You will be screaming when an M9 comes about, addressing all the hiccups of the M8, better MP, better everything. What will be your monetary loss with the M9? I think it way more than the 5D loss.
Hence, if you want to change, go ahead and do it and enjoy the M8. Your reasons are not very correct but so what.
Trigeek
Member
northernlights said:
Not sure what your point is... or your anger. Not looking for any justification to make the switch, already have justified in my mind. I asked two specific questions. 1) Issues remaining, 2) Best place to sell. Period. Someone commented on keeping the 5D, I responded.
But, in my opinion, the 5D is a poor resale value if you bought for $3K and can sell for around $1.5K. Considering a $1.5K loss, I am more compelled to keep it. If I could get $2K+ for it, I would sell it. Says nothing about the quality of the camera... it's a winner. I fully understand that the price reduction is due to it's approaching EOL ans is the cycle of most technology.
Relax.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
All digital camera bodies (including the M8) drop in price over time and use.
The 5D has dropped from it's new/inception price to where it is now (brand new) due to, as mentioned, end of life / impending upgrade possibilities.
Leica is the only manufacturer that I'm aware of that feels it's brand new M8 (only one year old) requires not a price drop but a price increase. While I adore Leica's build quality, I do think that this speaks more to their inability to streamline production costs; at least that's how I see it in my mind.
As to your initial questions - there's plenty to be read regarding recent and past issues on the Leica FAQ: http://nemeng.com/leica/004f.shtml
As for selling existing gear: hit up Fred Miranda's site (although now you have to fork over $$$$ to "join" before you can sell) or Photo.Net, KEH, or even your local CraigsList.
I can tell you this though - there's a few used M8's that seem to be coming available.
Personally.. I've decided to wait - the only thing that I have to lose is the ability to use the current body (M8) - in the meantime, I'll save my sheckles and wait for a "better" M8 (probably by the time I'm ready to retire)
Dave
The 5D has dropped from it's new/inception price to where it is now (brand new) due to, as mentioned, end of life / impending upgrade possibilities.
Leica is the only manufacturer that I'm aware of that feels it's brand new M8 (only one year old) requires not a price drop but a price increase. While I adore Leica's build quality, I do think that this speaks more to their inability to streamline production costs; at least that's how I see it in my mind.
As to your initial questions - there's plenty to be read regarding recent and past issues on the Leica FAQ: http://nemeng.com/leica/004f.shtml
As for selling existing gear: hit up Fred Miranda's site (although now you have to fork over $$$$ to "join" before you can sell) or Photo.Net, KEH, or even your local CraigsList.
I can tell you this though - there's a few used M8's that seem to be coming available.
Personally.. I've decided to wait - the only thing that I have to lose is the ability to use the current body (M8) - in the meantime, I'll save my sheckles and wait for a "better" M8 (probably by the time I'm ready to retire)
Dave
thomasw_
Well-known
dcsang said:Personally.. I've decided to wait - the only thing that I have to lose is the ability to use the current body (M8) - in the meantime, I'll save my sheckles and wait for a "better" M8 (probably by the time I'm ready to retire)
Dave
I agree with your views, Dave. Maybe when we are both retired we can meet somewhere between Ont and BC, say in Saskatchewan, and take some prairie pictures with our digital Ms. I hope by then our digital Ms require no lens coding, no IR filters, and have no cropped sensor.
Good cheer, Thomas
Trigeek
Member
Thanks Dave,
That is quite a link you sent me... Thanks.
Regarding your comment on "there's a few used M8's that seem to be coming available". Are you suggesting that people are selling them because they are unhappy?
Lastly, thought the price increase was more to do with weaker $ than increased price. See you are from Canada though, so maybe I was mistaken?
That is quite a link you sent me... Thanks.
Regarding your comment on "there's a few used M8's that seem to be coming available". Are you suggesting that people are selling them because they are unhappy?
Lastly, thought the price increase was more to do with weaker $ than increased price. See you are from Canada though, so maybe I was mistaken?
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Trigeek said:
Hi Hi.. now.. I'm remiss in my manners - I never offered a "welcome" to RFF..
So.. WELCOME Set a spell.. kick your feet up and enjoy the threads.
That said.. WRT your first question re: people being "unhappy" with them.. ya know.. I don't think I can say "yes" or "no" to that question because I don't know the true answer. I can tell you that I've had offers of used M8's when I posted questions in various forums. Most have said "it's not for them" or "I've decided to use my DSLR instead" so take that for whatever it may (or may not) be worth.
All I can tell you is I've done a fair bit of reading and while I am always tempted by such things - the idea of having and using an M8 really appeals to me because I can streamline my workflow as I already use 5Ds for weddings/portraits and events - I am having a really difficult time justifying that much money on a camera that 1) got only "so-so" reviews for image quality 2) has had "issues" that were well documented and 3) is not something that everyone can afford (even used) if I was not happy with it and wanted to sell it.
So.. to me.. as much as I do want to use and shoot with an M8.. I can't justify it right now based on those things I've stated above.
As for the second question RE: Price increase - well, if anything, the price here in Canada SHOULD go down due to our increasingly strong dollar but that ain't happening
It's a Leica thing.. they've done it in the past with their MP and M7's (if memory serves me correctly - anyone can feel free to correct me.. I ain't beyond swallowing a bit of humble pie
) - it's the way they keep their "exclusivity" above other camera brands imho.A lot about Leica.. regardless if you believe this or not.. has to do with, for some people, prestige. I do recall one of the first "photo blogs" I ever stumbled upon was Kyle Cassidy's. I remember reading the title "Put Your Money Where Your Leica Was" - in essence, shoot with the camera, don't just fondle it or hang it around your neck like a piece of jewelry. So.. when Leica raises their prices I think, and this is merely my opinion, that a lot of folks who can afford it (and even those that can't) go out to buy a Leica so they can show it off to their friends etc.
For me.. it was all about trying to work the digital M8 into my wedding work.. and for my own personal work... but I just can't pull the trigger based on everything I've read and seen.
I'm not bashing the camera or anyone that owns one or wants to own one... each of us are autonomous and can make up their own minds when it comes time to purchase.. just for me.. it's not the right time.. right now.
Cheers,
Dave
Richard Marks
Rexel
A 5D and an M8 are really not interchangeable. In broad terms would you rather use an SLR or a rangefinder? Have you used a rangefinder before? If you want a digital reangefinder then there is only one currently manufactured. Is it worth the money? If you really need a digital rangefinder that uses Leica glass then it has to be.
David Sang has summed up the position from a pro point of view. Is it a good commercial investment? Probably not, you can do an awfull lot else with that money. Its a lot easier to justify if you already have an M stsyem and M lenses. If you are going to go M8 from scratch then you really need to budget for quite a lot of additional lens expendature.
Personally | mix my hobbywith a bit of pro work but dont need the camera to earn its keep on the ballance sheet. I have had my M8 since January and have not had any of the "my camera died" type of events. The infrared issue has been dealt with, but it is a feature, and you need IR filters for all lenses. The other issue to bear in mind is that the flash system is very primitive compared to DSLR's. This is not a problem if you are used to M cameras as they excell in available light, however it is something you are going to notice if you swap a DSLR ofr the M8.
If you are serious, the only way to go is try one out, take some images onto your own sd card teke them home and sleep on it!
Just a thought, but it might be worth trying out a film m first before selling of a big DSLR system.
Best wishes
Richard
David Sang has summed up the position from a pro point of view. Is it a good commercial investment? Probably not, you can do an awfull lot else with that money. Its a lot easier to justify if you already have an M stsyem and M lenses. If you are going to go M8 from scratch then you really need to budget for quite a lot of additional lens expendature.
Personally | mix my hobbywith a bit of pro work but dont need the camera to earn its keep on the ballance sheet. I have had my M8 since January and have not had any of the "my camera died" type of events. The infrared issue has been dealt with, but it is a feature, and you need IR filters for all lenses. The other issue to bear in mind is that the flash system is very primitive compared to DSLR's. This is not a problem if you are used to M cameras as they excell in available light, however it is something you are going to notice if you swap a DSLR ofr the M8.
If you are serious, the only way to go is try one out, take some images onto your own sd card teke them home and sleep on it!
Just a thought, but it might be worth trying out a film m first before selling of a big DSLR system.
Best wishes
Richard
kevin m
Veteran
Much as I hate the size, I'm thinking one of these might be in my future:
http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/11-2007.htm
Before you lob any spitballs my way, check out the iso 6400 crops.
http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/11-2007.htm
Before you lob any spitballs my way, check out the iso 6400 crops.
saxshooter
Well-known
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the talked about price increase of Leica M8 cameras in the US seems to have happened. B&H and PopFlash both listing new bodies at $5495 today. So it stings a little more!
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cmogi10
Bodhisattva
kevin m said:Much as I hate the size, I'm thinking one of these might be in my future:
http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/11-2007.htm
Before you lob any spitballs my way, check out the iso 6400 crops.
That monster looks too good to be true! I'm still happy with my 3 year old DSLR but I sometimes wonder what I could do with that speed and versitiltiy. I don't need it though, not the way I shoot.
Eric T
Well-known
I have had an M8 since June. The images are amazing as long as you keep the ISO low. But I am keeping my Canon dSLR and lenses. There are some situations where the M8 just doesn't work such as low light, action telephoto shots.
Kevin - thanks for sharing the info on the Nikon D3. Those 6400 iso crops are amazing. I might have to sell my Canon gear to get one of those!
Eric
Kevin - thanks for sharing the info on the Nikon D3. Those 6400 iso crops are amazing. I might have to sell my Canon gear to get one of those!
Eric
kevin m
Veteran
I'm thinking the same thing, but I'd hate to lose the 85/1.2L.
I'll wait to see if Canon fixes up the 5D replacement before I do that, though. I prefer the smaller, non-pro size bodies. Heck, if the 'new' 5D has the improvments the 40D has, particularly the weather sealing, that would be sweet.
I'll wait to see if Canon fixes up the 5D replacement before I do that, though. I prefer the smaller, non-pro size bodies. Heck, if the 'new' 5D has the improvments the 40D has, particularly the weather sealing, that would be sweet.
Trigeek
Member
Thanks all for the food for thought . Quite frankly I don't really desire any specific brand of camera. I just want to go out and take pictures and come back with decent files to work with. The 5D allows me to do that just fine, but as I use it, I have become uncomfortable with a few things. These are 1) Size and weight. Do not always want to carry it when out. So I miss opportunities where I wish I had it. 2) Makes me self conscious. Kind of goes with #1. but with the larger lenses, I feel uncomfortable pointing it at people for street shooting. Also, they notice you. 3) It's loud... the mirror slap draws attention.
About 6 months ago I purchased a G7 and I have to say I am having a lot of fun with it. I have it with me all the time and I find that I am much less self conscious with it. Problem with the G7, or even the G9 is that I am not fond of the image quality.
I was in B&H a month ago and looked at what they had and was drawn to the M8. Maybe part of it is the the Leica mystique (I have been known to lust after previous M series), but I honestly could not find another camera that fit the bill for what I wanted. The salesman told me of the upcoming Sigma DP1 and I just saw the Ricoh GR II on the web. Maybe I should look closer at these. Though the non ability to add another lens in the future is a turn off.
Anyway... Did my research on the M8 and understand the "quirks" & frustrations that it has. That is why I asked which ones people felt were remaining. Guess I am willing to overlook these (to a point) if I have a camera that meets the objectives above. I did a lot of shooting with a Contax II before switching over to a Nikon F2 (dating myself?) and liked/understand the rangefinder feel. But it was starting to spiral into a slow death and I made the switch to a SLR.
Finally, I cannot afford to have a DSLR and an M8. As like most of us, I ain't made of money. I figure I could sell my current equipment and just have enough to make the switch. Richard, you commented about budgeting for lenses. Yeah... would need to do that, but I think as of now, I will take a much more conservative view towards adding lenses.
If there are any cameras that I am missing I would love to hear about them.
Thanks for all of the comments... they really help.
About 6 months ago I purchased a G7 and I have to say I am having a lot of fun with it. I have it with me all the time and I find that I am much less self conscious with it. Problem with the G7, or even the G9 is that I am not fond of the image quality.
I was in B&H a month ago and looked at what they had and was drawn to the M8. Maybe part of it is the the Leica mystique (I have been known to lust after previous M series), but I honestly could not find another camera that fit the bill for what I wanted. The salesman told me of the upcoming Sigma DP1 and I just saw the Ricoh GR II on the web. Maybe I should look closer at these. Though the non ability to add another lens in the future is a turn off.
Anyway... Did my research on the M8 and understand the "quirks" & frustrations that it has. That is why I asked which ones people felt were remaining. Guess I am willing to overlook these (to a point) if I have a camera that meets the objectives above. I did a lot of shooting with a Contax II before switching over to a Nikon F2 (dating myself?) and liked/understand the rangefinder feel. But it was starting to spiral into a slow death and I made the switch to a SLR.
Finally, I cannot afford to have a DSLR and an M8. As like most of us, I ain't made of money. I figure I could sell my current equipment and just have enough to make the switch. Richard, you commented about budgeting for lenses. Yeah... would need to do that, but I think as of now, I will take a much more conservative view towards adding lenses.
If there are any cameras that I am missing I would love to hear about them.
Thanks for all of the comments... they really help.
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Richard Marks
Rexel
Hi again
I think you have given this plenty of thought. There are sacrifieces to be made if you trade your DSLR and as long as the benefits offered by a rangefinder matter to you then you are onto a winner. If you could handle the viewfinder on a Contax G2 then you will love the finder on the M8. Incidentally regarding lenses a lot of people are using Zeiss (abit cheaper) and Voigtlander (a lot cheaper) lenses on the M8 and this would certainly get you up and running for less.
The real test is to go borrow one and see.
Best wishes
Richard
I think you have given this plenty of thought. There are sacrifieces to be made if you trade your DSLR and as long as the benefits offered by a rangefinder matter to you then you are onto a winner. If you could handle the viewfinder on a Contax G2 then you will love the finder on the M8. Incidentally regarding lenses a lot of people are using Zeiss (abit cheaper) and Voigtlander (a lot cheaper) lenses on the M8 and this would certainly get you up and running for less.
The real test is to go borrow one and see.
Best wishes
Richard
Trigeek
Member
Yes, I think you make a good point about borrowing one, or renting one for an afternoon. I will also look into the alternative lenses that you suggest. They certainly have a more appealing price.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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