Self Censorship: Our Worst Enemy

[ruben]

Fresh morning of first weekend day, I asked my 16 old daugther if she has ever seen my RFF gallery and what she thinks about. "Dadddy you have become a sloppy photographer. Long ago you cared, but now your pics look as if you don't care at all and just shoot from the hip".

Wow, wow, wow. What a shower at early morning !

I immediately started to defend myself, arguing about the genre of Street Photography, in contrast to Portraiture. But she led me to a certain picture in my gallery and asked if I would puplish such a pic in a magazine. I thought twice and had no clear answer to myself. My daughter pointed to the shortcommings of the pic, while I explained my technical problems in having catched a better one.

The most interesting thing is that for that specific pic I got at RFF a single comment, positive of course.

This kept me thinking. A lot.

Do I care for getting positive comments ? Yes, I do want them, I do need them, and I know this explicitely since some time ago.

Do I want to improve my skills ? Here there is a hidden problem. If I answer yes, I am also implying I have a lot to learn and at the present stage I should regard the positive comments I get, as 'meanwhile'. Not a very comfortable place to seat.

BUT HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO IMPROVE IF I DO NOT ADMIT I AM STILL LEARNING, AND THEREFORE OPEN MY ATTENTION TO HARD CRITICISM, OR REAL CRITICISM ?

HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO IMPROVE IF NO ONE POINTS CRYSTAL CLEAR MY WEAK POINT AT THE PICS I DISPLAY ?

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Now allow me to review the issue from the other side: Me as a commentary writer.

Recently our member Alexz posted more than a hundred images at the Leica gallery site, about Tel Aviv city. I was the first to answer him here at RFF pages stating I am very pleased by the images.

BUT I DIDN'T WRITE ALL THE TRUTH. ALL OF MY TRUTH, MY OPINION. I didn't write at the thread, that in my opinion he should start to edit, or improving his editing, and instead of posting a mix of 90 regular and below images together with 10 excellent ones, he has to show those 10 only.

HOW IS ALEXZ SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT SUCH AN OPINION ABOUT HIS WORK EVEN EXISTS, IF I DON'T DARE TO WRITE IT ?

There is another classical example comming to my mind about one of our photographers, not particularly active here lately, which photographed a girl three times. 2 nudes, and 1 very original portrait like. The nudes looked to me a real disaster, while his portraiture work in general was of high quality to me.
Again I didn't say it.

NONE OF US IS SAYING "IT". 'I didn't liked this because..." Right ?

Therefore, in my opinion, in all what refers to image commentary we basically have three choices:

a) To be a self-supporting sect aftraid or real criticism.

b) To be a self destructing sect plagued with negative criticism and personal account settling.

c) To change into an open thinking community, pointing both to the positive sides and negative ones when we write a commentary. This demmands a more serious and dedicated approach. A responsible approach. And this has nothing to do with Stephen or the moderators.

==========

How can we put this in practice ?

First we have to change our basic attitude.

Then it would be a very good help if each of us clearly points to which cathegory of photographer he belongs now: Beginner, Advanced, High Quality.
If each of us do it, commentaries will be possible to do accordingly.

I myself am in the street stuff, and here I am a beginner. Therefore you should help me critizing my images accordingly to the needs of a beginner.

Sitemistic, for example, belongs to the High Quality. If he accepts this, his pics will be criticized accordingly.

If I and sitemistic get two enthusiast commentaries, as the situation is now, I may prompt to confuse myself and think what I am not. Nor I will be getting the help I really need.

But if instead of that we write what we should write, the day I see and feel I am getting too good and too much good commentaries at the "Beginners" cathegory, I myself will move to the "Advanced" cathegory, requesting different and higher levels to measure my images.

It all should be out of oneself initiative and choice.

But if we continue silencing ourselves about what we see and don't like, we are all going together downwards.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

We have a forum here 'Critiques' which has fallen into disuse and (I think) needs reviving.

As we're currently in a spirit of making the whole site more image centric I wonder if you, Ruben, would think about running a critique next week?

Just look at one of the old threads in the forum and copy and paste the instructions into a new thread and you're up and running...

 

[M. Valdemar]

The view count is a pretty good indicator of public acceptance of your work.

Of course, a photo of a naked woman will rack up thousands of views, no matter what the quality.

With the rise of the internet, we have tens of millions of daily self-published images, blogs, writing, etc etc.

Most of it is increasingly illiterate and incompetent.

What the internet sorely lacks is a strong cadre of editors. I'm not so sure that the ability of the hoi-polloi to freely express and publish itself is a good thing.

 

[Murray Kelly]

But if we continue silencing ourselves about what we see and don't like, we are all going together downwards.

Cheers,
Ruben

Ruben, why do you ask so many interesting questions?

Murray

 

[ruben]

We have a forum here 'Critiques' which has fallen into disuse and (I think) needs reviving.

As we're currently in a spirit of making the whole site more image centric I wonder if you, Ruben, would think about running a critique next week?

Just look at one of the old threads in the forum and copy and paste the instructions into a new thread and you're up and running...

No Jon, you seem to hide from the basic issues I formulated.

Of course, no need to say, I appreciate you a lot.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

Hi Sitemistic,
you have praised some of my pics. But why you have kept silent about the others you have not liked ? Had you been afraid I will suicide ? Don't you think perhaps I could learn something new ? Do you think that if you point to the weak sides of the pictures you review, perhaps others may disagree with you and a wonderfull discussion may follow ?

The strongest asset we have here is team thinking. Team thinking is not Stalin sole thinking, but disagreement and discussion. Only upon the clash of views each of us can arrive to his own conclusion and grow.

What I foresee, is that if we start to tell the whole we think and feel, and upon liking a pic of member X and wanting to post a good commentary, I will find another commentary in which the writer says "I didn't like it because...." and I will argue with him.

As the situation is now, we have images enjoying a chorus wellcome, and images enjoying a silent void. Fine, but why we don't enable the photographer to understand the "why" of such void ?

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[alexz]

Ruben, thenks for noting me by PM to that thread were my person has been mentioned.
Just responded to your PM.

Well, in general, I'm quite open to a constructive cirticism, I believe it helps tremendously to improve the skills and bring up better results.
I got your point and frankly, cannot disagree with it. I personally still find it difficult for me to bring up enough courage to cut off some 80-90% of the stuff in order to make the choice of those best 10-20% that worth showing in public, this is probably something I need to work on....

I would encourage anyone (and you Ruben, of course) to check out my Tel Aviv/Jerusalem series I posted in the related threads (as mentioned by Ruben) few days back and make a selection of those images you personally would be proud to show in public (under street photography topic, of course)...

Thank you, Alex

 

[Murray Kelly]

It's true, I think, that we all hate criticism. Our own is Ok but others - well - not so acceptible. I have never been game to post pictures. I know already that they are poor.

If you post, then any criticisms may or may not be congratulatory. Anyone who posts is really asking for praise of their work, I believe.

Rather than disappointing them we either shut up or say something quite bland.

OTOH I am can be really impressed by posted pictures but say nothing. Human nature I guess. Posted pictures sometimes inspire me to try harder with similar equipment and film but ultimately the reason I try is never acknowleged to the person who stimulates the thinking - it is part of the passing parade that is RFF. We're all here to learn, yes?

Murray

 

[palec]

I've tried to do constructive critique on photosig site. I've pointed out things which I didn't like, but this turned out against me as the photographer couldn't stand it. Since then I'm only commenting photos I like and sometimes I add notes on things I think have been done better. I also agree with Sitemistic on Noctilux photos, because especially in this case it always ends with opinion fights and the form is being set above the content.

 

[mbisc]

I personally still find it difficult for me to bring up enough courage to cut off some 80-90% of the stuff in order to make the choice of those best 10-20% that worth showing in public, this is probably something I need to work on....

Sorry for singling you out here, Alex, and I'm only doing this because your quote so clearly demonstrates my point, but you summarized one of my main criticism of digital photography work in general, and that's the ability to edit. We all remember the horrible vacation slide shows of the past (Johnny in front of the bridge, and Johny behind the bridge -- oh sorry, that photo is a bit fuzzy) and we all vowed to never do that ourselves. For many years, at least those of us (amateurs!) that were semi-serious about our photography, were quite good about that -- be it because we had to pay for prints, or because we had to work hard on each print ourselves.

Fast forward a decade or two -- taking digital pictures is (almost) free (as is scanning our film work, if that's how we get our photos digitized), and as a result we all forgot to edit our pictures. I must say, I am quite tired of getting CDs with photos from friends that have 10 great photos mixed in with 300 photos that are complete (inapproriate term) -- including such classics as mis-focused shots, or three versions of the same photo, all with a slightly crooked horizon.

/EndRant

Anyway, maybe we need to be more honest, but in a nice way, and also use more self-control before we put out work...

Cheers,

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

The view count is a pretty good indicator of public acceptance of your work.

Yep. And seeing some pretty awful photos getting a high count tells you there's a buddy system gallery viewing, not on purely based-on-the-image viewing.

It is bad manners, to say the least though, to go up and critique or criticize a photo from someone who hasn't explicitly asked for a critique. There are many people who don't understand the difference.

Good, Rubén, that you're moving in the right direction. The question now is: will you have the stomach for those who just critique negatively, without ever giving you positive or constructive feedback to help you? It's tough...

 

[rpsawin]

I don't know. Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't know of an objective way to judge photography. I know what I like and comment on it. If I don't like it, it's usually just my personal bias toward certain kinds of images, so I move on. For example, I don't like shots done wide open with a Noctilux. They just look out of focus to me. But, many people love them. How do you critique such images, particularly if you don't know your own bias?

I agree wholeheartedly and beleive that most criticism says more about the critic than the work. That is not to say such criticism is not useful, only to say it must be taken for what it is. It is difficult to critic a photographic using objective criteria and without speaking to the photographer about their vision and technique used in acheiving the final image.

It's nice to receive pats on the back for good composition and excellent tonality. That certainly helps you determine your work is pleasing to others but I don't think it provides the type of feedback Reuben is speaking about.

Of course, this being an internet forum, it is far too easy for criticism to degrade into abusive, personal attacks...we have all seen these. My own personal choice is to join a critique group that meets monthly to show work and provide feedback. I would encourage photographers seeking critique to form a local group to meet and discuss each others work.

Best regards and Happy Black Friday,

Bob

 

[robbiechad]

Hi Ruben, As Sitemistic says beauty is in the eye of the beholder, last night on TV (BBC 4) there was a Programme about Photography, and giving examplea of world famous photographers from earlier times 50s,60s,70s etc. I thought a lot of the stuff was snapshot and mundane but the presenter was seeing in these images something that I was obviously missing!! I dont like to be critical about pictures people post because they obviously like them, who am I to argue differently.

 

[Marc-A.]

It is bad manners, to say the least though, to go up and critique or criticize a photo from someone who hasn't explicitly asked for a critique. There are many people who don't understand the difference.

Good, Rubén, that you're moving in the right direction. The question now is: will you have the stomach for those who just critique negatively, without ever giving you positive or constructive feedback to help you? It's tough...

Totally agree with that.

Ruben:
1. It's one thing that your daughter tells you "her" truth and criticize your picture, it's another one if I or someone else tell you the same.
2. Sometimes, people post constructive critique about a better crop, how to improve a composition ... I remember that FrankS wrote me that one portrait of my girlfriend (holding her Pentax) should have been framed differently; when it's said in a constructive spirit, it's welcome.
3. When you have no comment for a picture, while you have positive feedbacks for others, you can draw your own conclusion. But as Gabriel said, that doesn't mean the commented picture is good or the picture without feedback is bad. Everbody has to find his own original way ... sometimes people like your work, sometimes they don't ... trivial but there's nothing to say about that.
4. As Jon reminded us, there is a critique forum and participating in is a very interesting experience. Start a new thread, and you'll have constructive critique.
5. You can start a thread where you can post pictures which you want feedback for. I did that twice, the last one was yesterday; see here: Birth.
Avotius, Alexz and others do that too.

Best,

Marc

 

[Pherdinand]

i 100%agree with you,except two things.
1: criticism is PERSONAL. I mean it depends on the person looking at the shots. There are really a lot of shots in the rff gallery where some people seem to be very positive, and I ask myself, what's wrong with these people? this shot says nothing to me! on in better case, i ask myself, what's wrong with me...

2: the "belongs to high quality/beginner/average/" etc classification: i don't think that is necessary. Everybody just should say what he finds of the image, in a polite but honest way, no matter who posted the image.

But many people expect only applaud, not negative criticism.
In the meantime many people are too critical (maybe me as well), and i've seen on other sites like photo.net that most of the so-called constructive criticism ends up telling the photographer where to crop the image or to increase the damn contrast. Is that rwhat we really want? or, better asked, is that something we can bear with?

The story with your daughter is nice. However, she is honest but she only says her oppinion. SO it's only a question,how important her oppinion is for your photography.

 

[ruben]

Ruben, I'm being honest when I say that I don't know what good photography is. I know what I like and what I don't like; but, it's not useful to tell someone I don't like their photos, even if I think them technically bad, because the effect may have been their intent. There are photographers who deliberately shoot out of focus, soft, low contrast images. It's their style. What value would it be to point out to them that their photos are soft, low contrast and out of focus?

I just don't think negative critique has much value except in a classroom setting for beginning photographers. If I like it, I say so. If I don't, I just look for something I do like. And there is so much to like in the gallery, why spend time looking at stuff I don't like?

HI SITEMISTIC,

I hardly can express my joy for your divergent view, as it provides the best opposite view to mine own.

What is a good picture and What is the difference between what we need and a class room ?

In a classroom, what is a good picture is decided by a single "authority" - the teacher. Of course there are great outstanding exceptional examples of teachers, aware of it, and not by chance one of them is an active member of RFF: Fred, signing as nikonwebmaster.

Accordingly, sitemistic, you are not requested to state "this is a good picture", although you do, nor the contrary, that you never do. What you are requested to do is to reveal both what you like and what you don't.

Here we face the problem of what to do with photographers that most of their pictures, or all of them you don't like at all. You have two choices. The first is continuing to keep silent.

The other is to try to asses among the many problems those pictures arise, what advice best will help him as his next mount to climb. Can't you do it ? Recently I have seen a very small pic by a member, which hardly anything can be seen due to the crowded subject and small picture size. Wouldn't it be helpfull if I tell him, my good friend I cannot comment about your pic due to its small size?

Right now, as I am writing these lines, I am having a very nice exchange with Alexz about the issue of picture editing. He wants to hear, he wants to learn, he wants to improve, his mind is open. Am I an "authority" to teach ? No. And I don't teach, I express my opinion in an accessible way.

We are very much afraid to hurt. But fear is fear, it should be dealt accordingly. What exactly are we afraid of ? Perhaps that we may discover we are less good than what we think of ourselves ? Welcome to the human kind.

I remind here, that I proposed in my opening post to give the opportunity to each one to self define his cathegory. And the possibility of not getting any commentary already exists. Does any one want to have the option of "good comments only". It is fine with me.

Accordingly, if I define myself as beginner, and get a hurting and mean blow as if I was supposed to be a refined photographer, I do expect other members to publicly censor my censor.

Now, it seems as if the pictures displayed at RFF divide into good and bad. We are forgetting that good and bad are relative to the experience of the photographer, and much more important, that there is no really bad picture. Every picture has its strong sides, which we also must point to when making a criticism.

The change we are requested to, is to approach commentaries of pictures as a serious thing, and stop chorusing hurras as if we were in a stadium. This is not helping much not those getting highly good commentaries, as I suppose they will start to get bored, nor those in the dark, nor those in the middle.

And we desperately need to discuss among us at the commentaries. Stop the ckicken chorus, leading nowhere, nor provoking deep analysis, which can only flow from divergent opinions.

Have you clicked an image to see ? Fine, be serious, tell your truth, do it appreciating all sides of what you see. It is no more than YOUR truth, not God's gospel.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Thardy]

Which photo did your daughter critique?

 

[c.poulton]

I dont like to be critical about pictures people post because they obviously like them, who am I to argue differently.

I used to think along these lines as well. It's always very difficult to crit a photo that has meaning to the poster, which I may be unaware of. Also, I have to admit that I feel very self conscious giving negative crits as I feel that I am leaving myself open to criticism myself. I suppose it boils down to the fact that I do not feel 'qualified' or skilled enough to give meaninful criticism, apart from the obvious positive statements that I give.

However, having positive AND negative criticism given to you on your work IS the only way to learn and move forward towards better photography. It hurts sometimes, but I do welcome all comments and I personally do try to take on board other RFF members comments or suggestions towards my work. So, certainly in that respect, and thinking about it, I now agree with Ruben that maybe we should start to offer up better feedback on posted images, both positive and negative, to allow us all to improve.

 

[Dektol Dan]

On line criticism is for the birds

On line criticism is for the birds

The interaction is too slow, there are no comparisons between like work, there is no discussion of cross purposes of goals, criticisms from the inexperienced waste time rather than provide learning experience, comradere and politeness gets in the way of real discussions that can't be had without hurting someone feelings, opinionated 'know it all' SOBs such as myself teach in a terse style that can affront newbies in the huge crowd that is always coming and going on a web site, no one really knows what the others experience is other than few postings in a gallery with very limited access and quality, there can be no rules that can be adapted to accomodate the crowd of folks with a such a disparity of experience and goals (just witness the fits and failures just discussing the gallery/criticsm issues on this site)..... on and on.

As I have suggested before, the best answer is to have a criticism corner that is run as an online college class, limited in size, duration of time, and topics of criticism.
I also believe someone who has experience in the field as well in instruction should be chosen to run these on line classes. Gurdjieff maintains people take knowledge for granted unless they have to make some sacrifice for it. I concur. If it costs some admission that means the participants are serious.

 

[Jocko]

I doubt that self-censorship is really our worst enemy, but I am sure that self-criticism is our best friend. No-one could critique my work more harshly than I do, and the same must be true of any serious photographer. A positive comment is not simply a gift an.d reassurance - it is a message to ourselves, because what we admire in the work of others is that which is lacking in our own. Thus such encouragement is genuinely useful to all concerned.

RFF reminds me of classical Athens - a few people of exceptional merit rise to prominence, but everyone is ultimately equal. Indeed, as in ancient Greece, those who aspire to tyranise the polis end up ruling a kingdom of one. We have no teachers, prophets or oracles. We are all learners, and from my experience in education I would argue that fraternal praise tempered by modesty and self-knowledge does more good than all the critiques on earth.

Cheers, Ian.