Self Censorship: Our Worst Enemy

[back alley]

lots of soul searching, good discusson.

one idea...set up a flickr group with a limited number of people. set all uploads for friends and only allow your small group of trusted folks to see the pics and make comments. there would be some control of at least 'who' that way. there could be as many small groups established as there are folks who would like to join.
just a thought.

i've said before that i do not feel qualified to comment but i still try to add a 'nice shot' when i can. i too am not comfortable to suggest how to change a photo for 'my' liking.
i do think that criticism needs to be asked for and not just assumed that because a photo is posted that the poster wants to hear what i think.
it's complicated, so many photos, so many words, so many disagreeable people and too sensitive people.
joe

 

[photogdave]

The problem is not at the picture posting level, but in us upon seeing the images and writing or not our comentaries. We avoid "trouble", we hide our feelings, we join the crowd chorus. We don't dare to express our feelings out of a false fear to hurt, and by the end account we betray ourselves and castrate our artistic potential. Not each of us is going to be an artist, but all of us can create.

Perhaps we need to learn how to be able to pin point both sides of what we see in a single pic. But how could we possible learn it if we are afraid of our own shadows ?

Yes, we have had some heavy tonged folks, but most of us are experienced and civilized members, able to orientate ourselves, but just afraid. My good fellows, this is called conservatism, aging, permature death before the physical one.

Self censorship is the worst censorship of all.

And let me be unambiguous. I am not mooving anywhere else. I trust you and myself that sooner or later we will be clever about the issues here exposed, me included.

Cheers,
Ruben

I agree that sometimes we may be wary of posting a genuine criticism for fear of insulting the photographer. Hence my comment about willingness to accept criticism.
To go even further I have to admit that I self-censor almost every post I make on RFF for fear that a moderator or the owner will misinterpret what I have written and accuse me of trolling. Despite my best intentions this has already happened.

 

[ruben]

......negativity cripples my confidence and my creativity.

Hi LYNN,
You are the charming lady that helped my good fellow Ian at his hour of great distress. We had not the chance to meet our thinking at other threads, being this our first time.

I cannot but remind that in my first opening post, I proposed to give the posting picture members the option of not getting negative criticism.

As a matter of fact a few times in my photographic history, I got terrible blows, hurting me a lot. With the pass of time, I understood that those bitter "criticisms" had nothing to do with my images, no matter how bad they were, but with the poor state of mind of the speakers.

A critique is not to be confused with the inquisition. It should be performed with tact and love for photography. It should start by pinpointing the strong sides of the image and standing on the positive grounds of the photographer making that image, to continue by showing how his/her intentions could have been enhanced if....

You seem to be a very sensible person. I would like a person like you to comment on my images. You can add elements that probably other folks cannot. What are you going to with this ?\

Such is our world, our life, the only one we can live. Are we going to live or to hide and say thanks we still breath ?

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[gb hill]

There have been some good comments on this subject, and Ruben I too thank you for this thread. I feel that the gallery is a place to share what we are doing. Most of us are hobbiest, not professional. Eventhough I have seen some work by several hobbiest that could be professional if they chose to. I think most of us know what a good photograph should look like, and if your pretty new to RF photography like me you have quite a long way to go. But I do strive to get there, and I think I can do that by reading & contuining to look at others positive work here at RFF. One thing I have learned around here is you have to be careful what you say to others. You can say something to some one and upset them pretty easy. You read their post and think you know someone & make a jokinkly comment and your into trouble. Like Raid stated there are some that don't need to comment at all. I have commented on ocasion on a photo I liked, but I'm not qualified to give a positive negative type of critique of ones photograph.(unless you use daylight film indoors and your photos look like mud) Yuck Besides on a lighter note I am my own worse critique. I think all my photos suck! and sometimes I even wonder why I posted them at all. And on that, i'm not joking.

Happy shooting

gb

 

[ruben]

.......

i've said before that i do not feel qualified to comment but i still try to add a 'nice shot' when i can. i too am not comfortable to suggest how to change a photo for 'my' liking. ..........
joe

Hi JOE,
I don't know your habits, your working schedules, your other obligations, etc.

But if I did, I would propose you that every morning before starting work, pick random images and write a commentary from your heart.

You see, an photograph is a complex conglomerate of many things, including technique, aesthetics and emotions. Who knows, perhaps by writing from your heart you may be addressing the most important of all.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Ororaro]

It is also, more than anything else, a matter of vision, and who are we - REALLY - to criticise the way another perceives his world?

Hmmm... No!
The way you are talking, everybody is a Picasso but the world is too stupid to realize it.
Execution, talent and vision must work together. Aesthetics, the elements and composition must dance together.

 

[lushd]

Recall the fine words of Socrates:

I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.

It's morally indefensible to try and bind minds with sterile photographic dogma by "correcting" them.

It is a generous gift to encourage them work out what great pictures are for themselves and them help them find their way to making them.

 

[ruben]

...........Besides on a lighter note I am my own worse critique. I think all my photos suck! and sometimes I even wonder why I posted them at all. And on that, i'm not joking....

gb

I may be wrong, but if I am not missing your angle, you post because you want to live your life the best you can and have the courage to go forwards. It is not about reaching an absolute goal, but about fighting your way.

Or in the words of a great modern Spanish poet, "Caminante, no hay camino. Se hace camino al andar". Perhaps Gabriel can translate this.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[lynn]

Hmmm... No!
The way you are talking, everybody is a Picasso but the world is too stupid to realize it.
Execution, talent and vision must work together. Aesthetics, the elements and composition must dance together.

My point is: these are all a matter of personal insight.

Are we talking knuckle-rapping for breaking rules? My aesthetics are my aesthetics, and I compose my images the way I experience them. My pictures will please some, and - apparantly - depress others. I am delighted by appreciation, and grateful for technical suggestions should they be necessary, but in the end it's still about my perception, and my conviction that I have translated my vision to the best of my ability.

If I'm my own choreographer - and I AM, thank heavens - who's to say I danced wrong?

 

[Ororaro]

My point is: these are all a matter of personal insight.

Are we talking knuckle-rapping for breaking rules? My aesthetics are my aesthetics, and I compose my images the way I experience them. My pictures will please some, and - apparantly - depress others. I am delighted by appreciation, and grateful for technical suggestions should they be necessary, but in the end it's still about my perception, and my conviction that I have translated my vision to the best of my ability.

YOUR photography making YOU feel good doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

If I'm my own choreographer - and I AM, thank heavens - who's to say I danced wrong?[/

If you're alone in your room, then nobody. Like playing air guitar in front of a mirror. Way cool when you're alone.

However, Classic Ballet is defined as such because of its strict rules. Same for Tango. Now if a Clown comes in jumping and kicking in the air, making turns and farts all over the place, can we agree it's not ballet, or will you still think it's Ballet with a personal twist?

 

[photogdave]

My point is: these are all a matter of personal insight.

Are we talking knuckle-rapping for breaking rules? My aesthetics are my aesthetics, and I compose my images the way I experience them. My pictures will please some, and - apparantly - depress others. I am delighted by appreciation, and grateful for technical suggestions should they be necessary, but in the end it's still about my perception, and my conviction that I have translated my vision to the best of my ability.

If I'm my own choreographer - and I AM, thank heavens - who's to say I danced wrong?

You have some nice photos in your gallery Lynn!

 

[Marc-A.]

RFF reminds me of classical Athens - a few people of exceptional merit rise to prominence, but everyone is ultimately equal. Indeed, as in ancient Greece, those who aspire to tyranise the polis end up ruling a kingdom of one. We have no teachers, prophets or oracles. We are all learners, and from my experience in education I would argue that fraternal praise tempered by modesty and self-knowledge does more good than all the critiques on earth.

Recall the fine words of Socrates:I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.

I contribute to the forum simply to share my journey with others making a similar trip. Many here are ahead of me, and I will never catch up, but the occasional "attaboy" is welcome.

This could have been said by Dante.

Plato, Socrates, Dante? Philosophical forum? What does happen to RFF?

I like this place more and more day after day

 

[ruben]

My point is: these are all a matter of personal insight.

Are we talking knuckle-rapping for breaking rules? My aesthetics are my aesthetics, and I compose my images the way I experience them. My pictures will please some, and - apparantly - depress others. I am delighted by appreciation, and grateful for technical suggestions should they be necessary, but in the end it's still about my perception, and my conviction that I have translated my vision to the best of my ability.

If I'm my own choreographer - and I AM, thank heavens - who's to say I danced wrong?

Hi Lynn,
Kindly excuss me for entering in between, but after this above quoted post, if I wrote that I would like that a person like you comment my images, now I want it even more.

It seems that behind the once "devastated" Lynn, there is a tiger, or rather a self confident one quite able to stand on her ground and defend them when necessary.

Besides, your "I am what I am" concerning images, goes along mine.

Cheers,
Ruben


PS
Now, you can ask, if "I am what I am", why do I want to get critique ? Because if I dare to expose myself I may achieve to be "what I am" even better.

 

[foto_fool]

Ned - Whose vision? Whose aesthetic?

- John

 

[aizan]

relativism can easily turn to close-mindedness if the participants don't accept their different subjectivities. don't forget, things can be right and wrong at the same time.

 

[Jocko]

Hmmm... No!
The way you are talking, everybody is a Picasso but the world is too stupid to realize it.
Execution, talent and vision must work together. Aesthetics, the elements and composition must dance together.

But when a Picasso does come along, the world - by which we mean those "qualified" to judge - usually is too stupid.

As far as I can recall, every significant movement in art and thought has begun by challenging the accepted standards of aesthetics, taste, decency, composition et al. Flatulent clowns are pretty much what the know-all critics saw in "The Rites of Spring". But the last laugh goes to the Stravinskys.

Cheers, Ian

 

[Marc-A.]

Ruben, this is a true story.

Many years ago, at school, I was very good at history and greatly encouraged by a wonderful teacher, Mr Taylor. Later Mr Taylor was replaced by Mrs Boss, another fine teacher, with a totally different approach, based on constant criticism. Her comments made me change my style, probably to my considerable advantage.

A decade later I remembered this experience when I was teaching at university. I had a student with a terrific appetite for work and enormous potential, but whose work was undermined by her approach. I praised her, but pointed out these problems as gently as I could. I was sure this would be an enormous help, but instead I will never forget her face as I spoke - her pain and sense of betrayal were agonising.

She never recovered her confidence and I have never ceased to regret that I did not pursue a different approach - one based on her needs, not my preconceptions. No one on this forum is an idiot. Everyone has instant access to the masterworks of photography. No one can be ignorant of the defects in their own pictures. Advice is one thing, but let's tear our own pictures apart before we start pointing at others, because the one thing that really does "betray ourselves and castrate our artistic potential" is the smug assumption that we know best.

Cheers, Ian

Same story here, but with a worse end: two of my students stopped their studies and left the university last year ... I deeply regret my approach to say the least; although this approach worked for 99% of my students, the 1% left is too much.

 

[Ororaro]

Ned - Whose vision? Whose aesthetic?

- John

Seasoned and experienced photographers and editors. The same that choose who is and who is NOT a, let's say, Magnum photographer.

I undersdtand this is only a converssation but photography rules do exist and not everybody sees and use them effectively (the rules include breaking the ruls in an aesthetic way).

 

[lynn]

YOUR photography making YOU feel good doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

Then who DOES deem it GOOD? And should I care if they do?

I think not.

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

We all have to make the images we do for the reasons we do it.

I like to hear your opinion, although I may not change my style.

Van Gogh was not successful in his own time.

(Off topic: I once almost bought a house where Van Gogh had lived, but preferred another nearby where Karl Marx had lived. Blue English Heritage plaque on the wall at both places.)

I'm planning tomorrow's Saturday Shoot Out and the photos may be great, or may be awful, but they're my photos. They'll be here on Monday and you may like them, or may not.