Which camera to buy?

[Wiyum]

Hey all,

I've been taking pictures for about ten years now, and I've been itching to try something new, something to reinvigorate the experience. Sometimes I think that something new is a rangefinder, and I long for an M6 or one of the new Ikons. Sometimes I think that something new is a medium format camera, and I lust after the Contax 645s and Hasselblad 500s.

I've realized that the best thing for me to do would be to grab a medium format rangefinder, kill two birds with one stone. Which brings me here.

Somehow I've been drawn to the 6x9 format (familiar aspect ratio, perhaps?), and as a result, I'm looking at two options: The Fuji GW690 (i/ii/iii) and the Mamiya Press. I looked at some of the old folders for a time, but I really don't like the feel of the folders.

I don't mind the fixed lens-ness of the Fuji, at least not at the moment. But it looks like I could only afford the first version, and not the mark 2 or mark 3. Is there anything noteworthy about the mark 1 that might give me pause? The Dante Stella Fuji 690 history page didn't show anything that seemed drastic to me, but I'm sure I could be missing something.

I can't find much information on the Mamiya Press stuff, apart from messageboard posts of people who loved the camera and people who regretted having sold theirs. I see that it has a brightline viewfinder, but I can't find which lenses have lines in the viewfinder. I also can't find any information on the light meter (does the Press have one? The Fuji?).

In addition, I'm looking at opinions on these cameras in general, as well as warnings about possible difficulty in finding repairs if a shutter breaks down or the like.

Finally, if there's a medium format rangefinder that you recommend that can be had for not too much money (just finished grad school), recommend away. I'm not married to these cameras nor to the 6x9 format.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer,

Will

 

[venchka]

An alternative: Back in The Land Before Time I owned a Konica Rapid Omega 100 and 90mm lens. It's 6x7 but what a lens it is. Very likely the sharpest lens I've ever used. I've been going through my old negatives lately. I have cropped 8x10s shot on Tri-X and developed in D-76 1:1. Not the finest grain combination around. However, my prints show no grain. The detail is stunning. Granted, the Koni Omega is a handful. However, you gain interchangeable backs and lenses. Or just stick with the 90mm lens and enjoy.

Koni-Omega Rapid 100:
This 6x7 rangefinder system was the first medium format camera I bought. It was also the first rangefinder camera I used, and I really like it. It might have the highest-quality lenses of any of the systems I have: extremely good, and I mean by professional-quality medium format lens standards, which consumer-quality 35mm lenses don’t even approach.

With a rangefinder system one looks through a viewing window with a central double image. The result is much easier, more accurate focusing under low light. The lack of a mirror in the way allows for true wide-angle lenses, with the rear element almost touching the film plane, and makes for a much lighter, more compact design. A penta-prism that covers 6x7 format is a big, heavy, expensive piece of glass (which adds nothing to image quality), and an SLR needs to be as deep as it is tall to allow room for the mirror to flip up. Also, rangefinder cameras can use leaf shutters, with their quiet operation and flash sync advantages. The classic rangefinder system is the Leica M-series of 35mm cameras.

The Koni-Omega Rapid 100 system that I have has interchangeable film backs, of which I have three. This allows me to pre-load a couple of backs, which lets me reload in a hurry when on location. Since there are only ten 6x7 exposures to a 120 roll, this comes in handy. There is also a Koni 200 system which allows backs to be changed mid-roll, which is a very useful feature, but I have two bodies so it is less of an issue. I can carry two film types in this way, but naturally I am stuck with the weight of a second body. Film advance is via a pull-push handle on the side of the camera. This makes for quick, single stroke film advance (no small deal when the film needs to move more than three inches with each frame) and gave the camera its name.

The focusing mechanism operates through a large knob on the right, which moves the entire lens in and out with a rack-and-pinion system. The large grip on the left makes for easy, comfortable hand-held operation. This is a completely manual system, so a separate meter is required. I use a classic Sekonic Zoom Meter, which is a reflected light meter.

The lenses are the best part of this system. The normal lens is a 90mm f/3.5 with shutter speeds to 1/500 sec. and a minimum aperture of f/32. I also have the 180mm f/4.5, which is equivalent to 100mm for a 35mm camera. It focuses down to 12 feet, and makes a nice portrait lens, although it is perhaps too sharp and cruel for this use. I used this lens with the camera mounted on a telescope for some nice pictures of Comet Hale-Bopp.

My favorite lens is the 58mm f/5.6 wide-angle lens. It is very sharp and free of distortion, and together with the big 6x7 format makes for exquisite images. Framing requires use of an accessory finder.

There is also a 135mm lens, which I don’t have. This lens is quite rare, and supposed to be a premiere portrait lens.

Prices are very reasonable, especially considering the quality of the system. A Rapid 100 body, 90mm lens and back in bargain condition is around $250 and the 180mm lens is around $300, as is the 58mm lens. The 135mm lens is more like $600. They stopped making them in the '60's, I believe.

 

[summicron2020]

If you keep an eye on Ebay you can find a Fuji Rangefinder for a fair price. Lately I've seen both the 6x7 and 6x9 Mk I/II go in the $400-500 range. The 90mm lens on the GW690 is a close approximation to a 35mm lens on a 35mm camera as well, if that's your thing for street photography and such.

 

[Solinar]

The GW 690 simply lacks the built-in lens shade and it outer body lacks the ergonomic grips of the II and III series. All three have the same lens and same shutter speeds.

Dante's site does not really convey how large the 6x9 Fujis are. He does say, that there is a night and day difference between the big Fujis versus classic MF folders, which is very true.

The Fuji's saving grace is its easy set up after removing it from your camera bag. Hand-held shots are best done using 1/125th ~ 1/500th of second. I either brace my arms or use a tripod at 1/60th of a second or below.

The Koni Omega mention in Wayne's post is a larger set up. I would be tempted to use a Pentax 67 SLR instead. It sold in larger numbers and there is more glass available. It too, is handful.

 

[shadowfox]

Will, you don't specify what about the MF folders that you don't like. But to me, the MF folders are the perfect entry to both RF and MF.

Even with the cost of CLA, an MF folder with a decent lens is lower than the prices of the Fuji's. I have two of them and haven't needed to CLA any of them and the pictures that I got from them are what I expect from a big negatives.

The only thing that is missing from the MF folders are if you're into wide-angle landscape photography, there's not one with sufficiently wide lens as far as I know of.

 

[venchka]

There is a Fuji 6x7 RF with 90mm lens for sale at the Large Format Forum. The price has come down in recent days.

 

[yefeihe]

Hello, Will,

Regarding Mamiya Press cameras, the newer bodies, i.e. the Mamiya Universal and the Mamiya Press Super 23, have three frames that you can select manually -- 100mm, 150mm and 250mm. I don't think the older Press bodies -- which look different from the Universal and the Super 23 -- have brightline frames. The wide angle lenses include 50, 65 and 75, all with their own viewfinder.

A good alternative to the Mamiya Press is the Graflex XL, which is smaller and lighter but also covers 6x9. It comes with lenses from Zeiss, Rodenstock, Schneider and Norita(Topcon), ranging from 47mm to 270mm. It is rather impressive that all three major German lens manufacturers provided lenses for the XL. Graflex XL's usually sell for a bit less than the Mamiya Universal, below $200 for a body with a 100/3.5 Tessar lens and grip, back, roll film holder. The focusing is often quite stiff, though. A big problem with the XL. XL's viewfinder doesn't have any brightline frames.

There's some information on www.bigcamera.com about these two cameras, and more. You can still get the user manual of the Mamiya Universal in PDF format at www.mamiya.com.

Hope this helps,

Yefei

 

[kuzano]

Mamiya Universal or Super 23

Mamiya Universal or Super 23

By a wide margin, the largest array of accessories accompanies the Mamiya Universal and earlier Super 23 Press Cameras. Lenses from 50mm to 250mm with many choices between. Roll film backs in 6X45, 6X6, 6X7, and 6X9. Polaroid backs, adaptors for vertical and horizontal framing, cut sheet film backs and ground glass focusing. Graflex back adaptors and Mamiya K type. Extension tubes (5 pieces that mate in various extension lengths). The list goes on. Some of these piece take a while to find. However, judiciously following eBay and other markets should yield a good basic starter with body, grip, normal (100mm) lens and a 6X9 roll film back to get you started for around $500.

A Mamiya Press camera is a TANK... It can be handheld, but mostly I have used them on a tripod. I did modify one with a broken rangefinder, to make a smaller camera, as shown on the www.bigcamera.com site. As mentioned there is a good deal of information on that site.

I also agree with the comments about the Graflex XL rangefinders, with one big CAVEAT. Many of the Graflex XL cameras have one or more of the three focusing tabs broken off in the focusing ring. I have had a half dozen of the XL bodies and only two of them had all three tabs. A good bump on the lens or focusing helical and goodbye non-repairable focusing tab. Otherwise, superb cameras with super lenses. In spite of the focusing tab problem, I am always amazed at how outrageous the selling prices are on XL's on eBay. The Mamiya Press cameras are much more reasonable pricewise.

The things you need to be most cautious about on Mamiya Press is to do your homework so you can stay away from the early Press bodies. Many people either unknowingly or outright lying, advertise the early Press cameras as Universal bodies. Be Careful if you shop Mamiya.

 

[anglophone1]

Had a Mamiya Universal with three lenses and 6x7, 6x9 , Polaroid backs which was stolen.
Replaced it eventually, with Fuji GW 6x9 [90mm] and GSW 6x9 [65mm]
Much, much better handling , fabulous quality, if you want "leica-like" handling in MF then here it is.
Mamiya much more like scaled down Graphic or other 5x4 press camera in handling.
I found a polaroid back for the Fujis too, so they do everything I did with the Mamiya.
My 2Ecs .
Clive

 

[Phoenix Phil]

If the large size of the old press cameas acceptable, then another camera to think about is a mini-Speed Graphic or mini-Crown Graphic. They were outfitted with rangefinders and can accommodate different sized backs. They fold up and don't take too much space in the bag. And just guessing, I think you can pick up a camera, one back, and a lens for $200-300.

 

[bythesea]

. XL's viewfinder doesn't have any brightline frames.

There's some information on www.bigcamera.com about these two cameras, and more. You can still get the user manual of the Mamiya Universal in PDF format at www.mamiya.com.

Hope this helps,

Yefei

Mine has 3 brightline frames......

So, is this a grafloc back or? The RH-10 fits fine but I wanted to use the 6x8 mamiya motorback, which doesn't seem to fit, because of the two curved retainers for the arms of the springback.......

 

[Abbazz]

So, is this a grafloc back or?

Yes, this is a 6x9 Graflok.

To the original poster: Have you considered a Fuji G690? It's a 6x9 camera like the more recent GW690, but with a few plus: it features lens interchangeability, a near silent shutter, an all metal body and a real "B" shutter setting. You can find it for $400-500 with the 100/3.5 lens (check Keh). Other lenses (50 to 180mm) are all superb but they are somewhat rare and expensive.

The Fuji is much easier to use than a Mamiya Press or Universal. For example, the Mamiya has no interlocks and shutter cocking is separate from film advance, so it is quite easy to make a double exposure or to ruin a good photograph by removing the lens without securing the dark slide. The Mamiya is a very versatile camera but, as stated by Clive, it is also as cumbersome and bulky as a view camera.

Cheers!

Abbazz

 

[harry01562]

I own and occasionally use a Mamiya G Press, which has the Graflok back as standard. Since I already owned several of the backs, it was a great find. This is an older model, and came with the 90mm lens, which I replaced with the 100mm. It is a cumbersome camera, but does handle fairly well. It also requires the user to think, because of the sequence of steps which must be followed. There is the dark slide, shutter cocking, seperate metering and setting and focusing that must be done before snapping the pic. That can also slow things down, and make for better, more thought out pics.
If I had a choice between this and an XL, I'd be inclined to stand pat. The XL does have the serious tab issue, as well as the stiff focusing, and a premium that isn't necessarily earned.
You've had some excellent options offered. Most of these cameras also have excellent lenses, which makes the choosing easier, since you won't have too many worries about poor glass.

Harry

 

[pagpow]

I own both Fuji 690BL and a variety of Zeiss Ikon folders -- Nettars or Ikontas (no RFs), not Super Ikontas. I bought the Fuji for its glass and RF because I was not good at guesstimating. But I have shot a lot more film w. my folders than with the Fuji.

Why? because I am more likely to stick a folder in my pocket when I go walking. With 100 speed film and sunny 16, hyperfocal distance makes these cameras wonderful point and shoots, with great sharpness compared w. 35mm film. Lack of RF not a problem unless I get really close and then I find playing games w.dof even w/o infinity takes care of a lot. Quality is good at f11 and 16, where you'll be shooting in sun and w. 100 speed film even w. the triplet lenses. My favorites are the stripped down models even w/o double exposure prevention -- less gear to go bad or get gummed up. Best part of this is you can try it under a $100 and recover your investment easily if you don't like it. My 2¢.