Leica LTM Leitz Elmar 5cm 3.5 or NOT

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
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jdleffler

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I have an old Leitz Elmar 50mm 3.5 sn:174845. I believe this puts its manufactured date at about 1933. However, the aperture markings only go up to f:16 rather than f:18. Is this a legit Leitz lens and how else can I tell if it is not? Additionally, there is a M marking on the side rather than mtr or feet. Any assistance would be appreciated. Sincerely, David
 

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The diaphragm is right up close to the first element and the optics are not blue or even blueish. Any assistance would be appreciated in identifying this lens. There is a leatherette ring that would cushion the closed lens when on the camera.
 
Elmar picture #2

Elmar picture #2

I thought this might help identify if this lens is a Leitz Elmar or not.
 

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It's not a Russian knock off since the fakes diaphragm is set back from the rear of the front element.

It could have been updated with the new ring by Leitz during a service since Leitz did do updates into the 60's.

I once had a coated 50mm f/2 Summar lens with papers proving Leitz did the coating.
 
photodog said:
I suspect the lens is from 1950. The first numeral in the serial number is actually a 7.
Click to expand...

That sounds right - this Elmar looks to be of that of early IIIf / late IIIc vintage with modern aperture settings and comes in just before the added f/22 marking.

It should be coated, as well.
 
Interesting conjecture. If the first numerial is a 7 then it is a radically different configuration from the second numerial which appears to be a 7 with a bent back. Do other lenses have this difference in stamped numerials? Importantly, were lenses of the 1950s marked as this one?
 
photodog said:
I suspect the lens is from 1950. The first numeral in the serial number is actually a 7.
Click to expand...

I enlarged a portion of the photo in PhotoShop, but can't get a definitive answer on the first numeral. Perhaps some contrast agent, such as chalk, could be used to better define the numerals. It could easily be cleaned up with a piece of Scotch tape. One thing that puzzles me is that the numerals and the ring in which they are stamped appear much older and worn than the other parts of the lens assembly. It is possible that the original barrel was damaged and the optics and aperture assembly were installed in a new barrel at the Leitz factory.

Jim N.
 
jdleffler said:
Additionally, If Leitz did an update would they update it to a 16 in the 1950s and 1960s?
Click to expand...

My 1946 Elmar is engraved with the old sequence of f-stops: 3.5, 4.5, 6.3, 9, 12.5, 18. The aperture will stop down past the 18 mark to what would be 22, but there is no such mark. The 1955 photo shows: 3.5, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22. I can't say when the changes occurred, or whether they were different in different markets.

Perhaps they just used old stock, from the period when the top stop was 16.

Jim N.
 
Jim, Thank you for your insight. I guess that brings up the crux of the matter on which the whole situation pivots. Does anyone know of any Elmar 50mm 3.5, of any age, that stopped at f:16 ? So far I haven't seen or heard of when this specific configuration may have been manuractured. It appears that the Elmar in the 40s went to f:18. The Elmar in the 50s went to f:22. Does anyone have one or know what the low serial numbered Elmar of the 30s was marked?
 
jdleffler said:
Does anyone know of any Elmar 50mm 3.5, of any age, that stopped at f:16 ?
Click to expand...

Yep early f/3.5 Elmars use the old aperture increments with f/18 being the highest marked increment. Late 1940's / very early 1950's used modern increments marked between f/3.5 to f/16. A pre-Red Scale came next f/3.5 to f/22. Followed by the Red Scale, also f/3.5 to f/22.
 
So... if at sometime after 1947 a very early 1930 lens went into Leitz to be updated it would have parts updated to the modern f:16 scale configuration from the eariler f:18 scale. Additionally, it should (or could) have been coated at that time? Is this about right? Another possibility is that the serial number is not what it appears to be and the entire lens is a very late 1940s or very early 1950s lens. This would account for the excellent mechanicals. If the serial number were 774845 this would put it at 1949. (based on http://www.oresteen.com/leica lens dates.htm) and the lens would have been coated. Is this about right?
 
I found an elmar (edit : the serial would set it in 1950, It is a 746xxx number), coated. The aperture ring shows f3.5 to f22. And the front ring is not striated. So I am wondering if it is actually a true elmar… Its price is around 250 euros, very very clean. But I am not sure I need it, if I already have a Heliar 50mm 3.5, and an post war coated ultra clean summitar.

A piece of advice here would be greatly apreciated. Sorry for "High Jacking" the thread!
 
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I might as well chime in here too. I have a 1947 coated Elmar 50/3.5. It has the modern aperture settings, going up to f.16. The distance scale on mine, however, is in feet. Serial no. is 673,4**.
 
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