Zorki-1 scratched negatives?

[arowe]

When I scanned the first film (HP5+) through my zorki-1, I noticed some scratches. - I now tried another film (FP4+) primarily to try the Orion-15, and this seems to have worse scratches - The first shot is the complete frame showing the worst scratches, and the second shot is of a crop of a small area showing them in detail. The third shot doesn't seem to show scratches and is from earlier in the film.

There are a couple of things I notice. - Firstly, they are not evident on all frames and 'seem' to be worse towards the end of the film. Secondly, they only seem to affect the centre of the negatives. - They are pretty much in the same place on each frame. - What seems odd is that they are not necessarily 'straight' - I'd expect them to be pretty straight ...?

Any ideas - I don't think it's my processing and the scanner holds the negs in a tray, so they are not being introduced there. - The scratches seem to be on the emulsion side though it's very hard to tell.

Many thanks.

Alan.

 

[Nickfed]

Very wierd. The scratches are not even straight and it is very hard to put this down to the camera, where you would expect them to be parallel with the motion of the film.
The only trhing I can suggest is that there is something very wrong, but probably easily fixed, with the presser plate. It is not only in bad codition but also loose and can rotate while winding the film. The plate is circular, after all. You should drop the body and the problem may become apparent just in that process. Check the Oleson website if you are unsure about doing this. It is quite painless. I believe you should be able to wind a roll of film on the skeleton to see if there is an obvious fault with the transport.

 

[acheyj]

As Nickfed says, drop the body. If as you think the scratches are on the emulsion side its unlikely to be the pressure plate. Maybe grit or raised spot on the surrounds of the shutter crate. Also look for dirt/ grit on the film canister felt lips.
I assume you are using standard film canister, not some of the self opening ones used with bulk film etc., also just a normal take up spool.
Dunno, has me beat.

ron

 

[acheyj]

The pressure plate is slightly oval and is loose. Fits into a VERY shallow recess. There are too flat springs under the plate that fit into furhter recesses, take CARE when removing the body not to loose the springs.
Be aware to remove the body the lens ring attached by 4 screws have paper washers between it and the body. Take GREAT care, they are critical for proper infinity setting of the lens. Also inside the body are two loose plates the screws locate into, watchout for the range finder arm, push it back gently so it doesnt hang on the body. CHECK the Olsen website.

good luck

ron

 

[Limpovitj]

That looks very much like squeegee marks to me. The emulsion is very soft when wet. If you use a dedicated squegee or your fingers to wipe down the film before drying, well, then don't, and see how that works out.

If it is squeegee marks, then that would explain why they're not perfectly straight and even, as well as why they are worse at on end of the roll (as you tend to pick up both dust and speed as you go).

Hope this helps!

Any which way, squeegees are evil.

 

[Nickfed]

Hi Nickfed, that sounds very interesting, I've never heard of round pressure plates before. I'm new to bottom loaders. Would that be the same as my recently bought Zorki C ?

I think it is Pitxu. I believe all bottom loaders are the same, all the presser plates for them are the same, and all are disassembled in the same manner. The only exception might be your Zorki C (!!!) where the pc terminal may be in the body like the early FED-2. I don't believe this is the case and the flash gear comes off with the top deck.

In the light of this, the Oleson instructions apply equally to all.

 

[arowe]

Thanks all. - I will drop the back off and have a see what there might be inside causing this. - I have not used a squeegee or 'fingers' on the wet film, just hung straight from the tank.

 

[wolves3012]

I think it is Pitxu. I believe all bottom loaders are the same, all the presser plates for them are the same, and all are disassembled in the same manner. The only exception might be your Zorki C (!!!) where the pc terminal may be in the body like the early FED-2. I don't believe this is the case and the flash gear comes off with the top deck.

In the light of this, the Oleson instructions apply equally to all.

Nope, it isn't round on a Zorki - it's shaped like a circle overlaid on a rectangle. Pressure plates on FEDs are round.

 

[ZorkiKat]

I think it is Pitxu. I believe all bottom loaders are the same, all the presser plates for them are the same, and all are disassembled in the same manner. The only exception might be your Zorki C (!!!) where the pc terminal may be in the body like the early FED-2. I don't believe this is the case and the flash gear comes off with the top deck.

.

Only the FED-1 and certain, early Zorki-1 had round pressure plates. The later Zorki, as well as the Zorki-S, 2, 2S and Zenit-1/S had band-aid shaped pressure plates. The bottom loading Zorki-5 used a slightly differently shape one as well.

One thing about pressure plates on these cameras is that they tend to corrode and develop little corrosion "pimples" on their surface. These can be rough enough to cause abrasion on the base side of the negative. One way to induce or cause the growth of this sort of corrosion is to touch the pressure plate. And such is done by using unorthodox loading methods such as the "card system".

But is it really the pressure plate? If the abrasion is on the base side, then it might be the pressure plate which is at fault. If its on the emulsion side, the scratching must be happening elsewhere.

You can check the insides of the camera by disassembling it. Instructions here"http://jay.fedka.com

To access the shutter crate, the top plate containing the rangefinder optics need not be disassembled. No part of the sync circuit is in the body.

Slightly corroded pressure plate or film channel surfaces can be polished with
some jewellers rouge rubbed lightly with an old soft cotton rag. Or use this in combination with some metal polish (such as that used for cutlery). Buff and buff until the bumps are gone.


Jay

 

[arowe]

Ok - I haven't yet dropped the case off the Zorki-1, but I finally got my reel for the Zorki-4, and finished the film in that. - Crucially, there are a couple of frames on this which show scratching, and with this it is easy to see what the film path is and what it might be scraping on. Well, I hang my head in shame and say that I think it must be happening when I've taken the film off the reel in the developing tank. - I've been pulling the 'loose' reel off the spool and then hanging the film up. - I think this is allowing the emulsion to move against other parts of the film which might explain why the scratches are not straight.

What I think I should be doing is pulling the film out of the processing reel without letting it touch the film still in the reel - sort of bend it in the middle and pull out gradually- advice welcome.

I'll do a roll in the Zorki-1 and have it commercially processed and see what happens - I'd really love that camera to be a user, it's so beautiful!

The test film I had in the Zorki-4 worked to an extent but the negs were very thin - it was a roll of original FP4 which might have been up to 25 years old and I just guessed and gave it some 10% more development than FP4+ recommended. - I think the emulsion is thicker and it should have had more... It did at least validate my 'fixing' of the sticky shutter curtain.

Couple of shots scanned OK from the the thin negs and don't show scratches 🙂

Thanks for all your suggestions - I'd appreciate some guidance on how I should be removing the film from the developing tank spool.

Alan.

 

[ZorkiKat]

🙂

Thanks for all your suggestions - I'd appreciate some guidance on how I should be removing the film from the developing tank spool.

Alan.

Allan

What type of reel are you using?

If it's the plastic paterson type, film is removed after processing by pulling out the flanges apart, rather than unreeling the roll. The newer plastic self-loading reels have wider film entry guides which require the reel to be dismantled before the film can be taken out.

Jay

 

[arowe]

Jay,

It's an old bakerlite patterson tank. - I think 'Mark II' on the lid with clear plastic reels (one with somewhat warped channels where it was dried too close to the fire one time in my youth).

If I pull off the removeable reel, then obviously the film is able to 'touch' other parts of itself - which presumably I'm trying to avoid with the film wet. I seem to remember when I used to process roll film that I didn't do this, but just pulled the film out from the reel with the 'flanges' in place and I guess this would keep the wet emulsion separate, but there's less 'give' in 35mm film to do it this way.

Alan.

 

[MartinP]

I was surprised to read that someone gets the 35mm film out of a Paterson reel be unclicking the reel - surely it must fall everywhere ?!

I'm not sure where/when I found this 'other' method originally, possibly on the instruction sheet with the original tank, but that is long gone now so I can't check. Anyway, I have been using those tanks for several decades, and taking out both 35mm and 120 rolls the same way...... (this is stating the obvious and not very clever, so I don't claim any brownie-points for it)

Take the reel out of the distilled-water & wetting-agent final rinse, remove the reel from the black lighttrap-tube thingy (so that you can get your fingers through the middle of the reel, for a safer grip), pick the outermost end of the film up a few millimetres, squeeze the end together a tiny bit in order to bow the film, unroll (don't pull) 5-10mm of film (unless the image is right on the end of course) and crease it for a better grip with the film-clip, put on the unweighted film-clip, continue to unroll the wet & slippery film by bowing the edges a little so that the film-clip is keeping the loose end of the film stable while you have two hands for the reel and film, the whole thing will almost unroll itself, don't drop the end of the film(!!!), hook the film-clip in your drying location (shower-stall for me) while keeping the rest of the film under control and not touching anything, then add the weighted film-clip and gently allow the roll to become vertical and stationary.

It takes longer to read it than to do it.

What does everyone else do ?

 

[arowe]

Many thanks MartinP. That's a very clear description and I can visualise exactly what you mean. - This is exactly how I'd do it if it were 127 / 120 film - it just didn't seem right with 35mm somehow as it doesn't bend in the middle as easily to pull out of the 'track' in the reel.

I know it's probably obvious, and I must have known how to do it when I last processed film over 20 years ago, but apparently it isn't like riding a bike!

I've got loads of prints and slides from previously which don't have scratches so I must have done it right then! I guess it's common sense really.... so I'm clearly lacking.

Anyway. - I'll put some more film throught the Zorki-1 and see if I can process it more carefully. - It could still be scratches on the non-emulsion side I guess.

Perhaps I should also follow your advice on the final rinse - for distilled water and wetting agent I'm currently using 'tap water and washing up liquid' - Guess I should probably rethink the malt vinegar stop bath too 🙂

 

[MartinP]

Well, I am completely sure that I didn't come up with that way of unloading the film, but I really don't remember how/why I started doing it like that.

Really, the film isn't pulled from the reel (except maybe the last few centimetres) - it is more of an unwind. This sort of makes less of a 'mechanical' demand on the film I think. That could be wild optimism of course, but the main thing is the only parts touching anything else are the film edges on the slippery reel.

I tried the washing up liquid idea too, but I found that when the water/washing liquid evaporated that there was sometimes still a smeary sheen left behind and especially visible against reflected light on the base side. It is always possible that with your local water you don't need to do anything special at all - I did live somewhere like that for a while, but most places are apparently not so fortunate with the water-supply.

Malt vinegar is possibly 'interesting' chemically, but it should all be washed out during the rest of the process. The stop bath does have an effect on the life of the fixer though, so that might be tricky to evaluate if you use the fix until it is exhausted.

PS. I forgot to mention that I also have a Zorki-1 !! Fortunately, it was cla'd before I got it. Barnacks are very handy 🙂

 

[arowe]

MartinP, local water is very 'hard' so I do need to use something, but then again it was too in my parents house.

I was going to drop the back off the Z-1 tonight but my wife dissuaded me and said i should run another film and see what the results are... So, i've loaded a colour film and will get it 'professionally' processed and see what happens. I'm still not convinced that it's not the camera scratching the film. - When I set it on 'Z', and open the shutter, the pressure plate seems very close to the 'frame' on the back. - But, I have a number of 'old' films and they need to be used so it's no waste. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" so I want to be sure what's broken before trying to fix it. - If it is broken, I might as well get another Z-1, but that seems false economy - I really love the way this one works and the lightness of the Z-1.

I had hoped that I'd use this primarily with 28mm lens and the Russian Turret viewfinder, but that is too big. so I might have to get a Fed-2 and a smaller viewfinder for that and keep the Z-1 with the collapsible I-22. Oops - is this GAS?

 

[Joao]

I was surprised to read that someone gets the 35mm film out of a Paterson reel be unclicking the reel - surely it must fall everywhere ?!

I'm not sure where/when I found this 'other' method originally, possibly on the instruction sheet with the original tank, but that is long gone now so I can't check. Anyway, I have been using those tanks for several decades, and taking out both 35mm and 120 rolls the same way...... (this is stating the obvious and not very clever, so I don't claim any brownie-points for it)....What does everyone else do ?

The JOBO System 1500 tanks instructions (see scan) advise to separate the reels before final washing/wetting agent . I have tryed to do it both with JOBO and Patterson plastic reels and I don't like it, as the film seems to slip everywhere - although I did not find any scratches so far.
I usually bend the last centimeters of film and gently unwind it as described above.The idea of using the weight of the clip seems a clever one (thanks!), I will try it in my next roll.
Cheers
Joao

 

[arowe]

Scratches - solved.

Scratches - solved.

Well, I've run another few films through this Zorki-1, and got one of them developed commercially - same result with the scratches so it wasn't my processing. Anyway, dropping the back off the camera it seems that there was one bit of something like grit on the surface (shown in the red circle on the photo), and also the edge of the frame was very rough as can be seen. The other potential issue i found is that there was a sliver of film under the back of the pressure plate which may have meant that it was applying too much pressure to the film.

The pressure plate looked fine though, so what I've done to resolve this issue is to rub down the edge of the 'picture frame' with very fine wet'n'dry paper, and then polish off this and the rest of the area with 'brasso'. It does seem to me that the 'rails' which are supposed to hold the film off this surface are very 'thin' compared with those on other cameras - including my Zorki-4, so maybe the film isn't held away from the surface of the shutter crate correctly. - Why the scratches were not straight remains a mystery though it might not be being pulled through quite straight as there is some play in the shaft with the sprockets, and some 'chewing' of the sprocket holes in the film.

Anyway, I've run some film through this today and just scanned and THERE ARE NO SCRATCHES - hurray! I'm glad the camera is working and glad too that my processing technique is vindicated though I have switched to 'pulling' the film from the reel rather than unclicking the reel.

Many thanks to all here for their suggestions etc.

Thanks,

Alan.

 

[Nickfed]

Glad to see you could fix it so painlessly.