FX trading
Established
Let me play devil's advocate for amoment- Should Mr. Kaufmann decree the end of the M-range and it's replacement by something new? In fact, is the M the modern equivalent of the IIIG model in 1960? Points to consider include the following:
-Plenty of used ones on market, limiting demand for new
-Expensive, especially compared to main opposition
-No AF, image stabilization, zoom and other current goodies
-No watch technologically to Canon, Nikon, etc
-No upgrades possible anymore (digital backs, finders, etc)
-No serious attempt to develop new, upcoming markets (mainly BRICs)
Perhaps this discussion will help bring out solutions and directions for the Company, whose prospects at the moment are (unnecessarily) far from bright.
Quite often it is from very difficult and challenging situations that great ideas and solutions are conceived.
Let's see what comes out- however, if production is to stop, please give me sufficient advance notice so that I can get my last orders in!
-Plenty of used ones on market, limiting demand for new
-Expensive, especially compared to main opposition
-No AF, image stabilization, zoom and other current goodies
-No watch technologically to Canon, Nikon, etc
-No upgrades possible anymore (digital backs, finders, etc)
-No serious attempt to develop new, upcoming markets (mainly BRICs)
Perhaps this discussion will help bring out solutions and directions for the Company, whose prospects at the moment are (unnecessarily) far from bright.
Quite often it is from very difficult and challenging situations that great ideas and solutions are conceived.
Let's see what comes out- however, if production is to stop, please give me sufficient advance notice so that I can get my last orders in!
chris91387
Well-known
maybe develop one last "great" film rangefinder before going out?
they could charge more and people would pre-order like crazy to buy "the last leica film rangefinder in production"
sort of like nikon did with the f6 (although some may disagree)
- chris
they could charge more and people would pre-order like crazy to buy "the last leica film rangefinder in production"
sort of like nikon did with the f6 (although some may disagree)
- chris
jackal2513
richbroadbent
they should make a minilux but with like an 18mm F/1.4 lens on it and call it the MAXI-NOCT :bang:
Bully
Established
Long Live The King
Long Live The King
The M-System is not at the end. Leica sold more film cameras around the last 5 years than more than two decades ago. In 2003-2004 Leica sold a range of M´s last reached in 1968!
Yes, in the last 2 to 3 years the production of film-based M´s got down a bit, but with the introduction of the M8 one and a half years ago, the sales of MP and M7 went up, again.
You see, there is no doupt, that MP and M7 will be produced unless there is no more demand, and from today´s point of view the demand is still high enough, that production will go on.
Please keep in mind that the M´s live in a little gap between the big Canon´s and Nikon´s etc.
We all can be very happy, that the M is still alive. It is without a doupt the last icon of photography! The Nikon F, the second last icon in history is dead. Now only the good old MP and M7 represent the golden age of photography.
We all should be proud that MP and M7 live on...!
Bully
Long Live The King
The M-System is not at the end. Leica sold more film cameras around the last 5 years than more than two decades ago. In 2003-2004 Leica sold a range of M´s last reached in 1968!
Yes, in the last 2 to 3 years the production of film-based M´s got down a bit, but with the introduction of the M8 one and a half years ago, the sales of MP and M7 went up, again.
You see, there is no doupt, that MP and M7 will be produced unless there is no more demand, and from today´s point of view the demand is still high enough, that production will go on.
Please keep in mind that the M´s live in a little gap between the big Canon´s and Nikon´s etc.
We all can be very happy, that the M is still alive. It is without a doupt the last icon of photography! The Nikon F, the second last icon in history is dead. Now only the good old MP and M7 represent the golden age of photography.
We all should be proud that MP and M7 live on...!
Bully
bmattock
Veteran
Bully said:
Everyone said that the Nikon F-series cameras would 'live forever' and that 'as long as there is demand, Nikon will make them'. Well, there may be demand - but Nikon does not make them. I notice no one says that about Nikon F-series cameras anymore.
So any statement that 'as long as there is demand' is patently and provably not true. Leica will make M-series cameras until they don't. And when they don't, no amount of 'demand' will bring them back.
Demand goes unmet all the time. That age-old truism isn't.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
chris91387 said:
Some would say that the one last "great" rangefinder is the MP.
I think that maybe Leica should issue one last M, the M9 with a full frame sensor. Then maybe they should start a D series, which may or may not be M mount.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Bully said:
I'm sure the M7 and MP will continue for a while, but the determining factor for ending the line will more likely be profitablity than demand.
Bully
Established
Leica is such a little factory that they can produce such an iconic camera like the M for a long time.
Nikon on the other side is a global player, they can only be interested in "great demand". It´s a shame that they discontinued the Nikon F and no one realized it yet.
Bully
Nikon on the other side is a global player, they can only be interested in "great demand". It´s a shame that they discontinued the Nikon F and no one realized it yet.
Bully
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
I think Leica should do the opposite!
Leica should concentrate entirely on the M camera (system) and drop the R camera altogether.
The way forward for Leica is to reinvent the Visoflex (IMHO).
Leica should concentrate entirely on the M camera (system) and drop the R camera altogether.
The way forward for Leica is to reinvent the Visoflex (IMHO).
lns
Established
bmattock said:
I'm not arguing the general point. Yes there are a lot of reasons that things that are in demand are no longer produced. That is good to keep in mind. But Nikon is still making the F6. It is also making (through Cosina) a cheapy Nikon film SLR. Leica, Cosina and Zeiss are still making 35mm film cameras. There are still film disposable cameras being made. There are still medium format and large format film cameras being made.
Will there be a day that new film cameras are no longer produced? Maybe. That seems a reasonable guess. Leica stopped making cameras itself for a while. That doesn't mean demand won't be met with existing bodies, and it doesn't mean some other manufacturer won't jump in.
As for the original question, SHOULD Leica stop making film cameras, who can say? Only Leica knows financial position. I would think as long as Leica can sell them, Leica will keep making them until the parts run out. Then they'll have to decide whether to order more. Since Leica already offers ala carte, I think we can assume that the cameras aren't that difficult to assemble, and that there's a ready supply of parts on hand. So it's kind of a cash cow -- no development costs and a generous profit margin. If you are trying to move into a new area (like digital), it's good to have cash flow to fund research and development.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
No, most certainly not.
what would people have to " Love to Hate" once the M is gone.
what would people have to " Love to Hate" once the M is gone.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
If Leica were bold enough to put the M range to bed it would make it far easier for them to design and release a new digital without having to work within the M design's constraints to keep the purists happy!
bmattock
Veteran
lns said:
I don't know if 'produces' means the same thing as 'manufactures' in the case of the Nikon F6, but it doesn't matter much, you're right. My suspicion is that Nikon still sells the F6 because they still HAVE F6's laying about. But I could be wrong.
Quite possible, even likely, if there is film available.
I don't take a position on whether or not Leica should discontinue making M-series cameras. My basic thought is that they may be caught in the position of a buggy maker in the nascent age of automobiles. They probably cannot compete on the digital front with a commodity-type digital camera, and as goes film, so goes their M-series film cameras. Perhaps they should simply batten down the hatches, continue making M-series film cameras, and ride it out until the last guy out the door turns out the lights. That may still be awhile yet.
Ororaro
Well-known
Bully said:
Exactly what I've been thinking. The Nikon F is long gone, with all those silly stupid G lenses.
Ororaro
Well-known
I don't get all the folks wishing Leica to reinvent itself or whatever. Why do people want Leica to be the next Nikon D400 or something?
I know what Leica is all about and this is why I own a Leica system with a DSLR system. And I couldn't be happier.
The problem with internet forums is all the newbies and retards voicing their opinions while the intelligent folks are outside shooting.
I know what Leica is all about and this is why I own a Leica system with a DSLR system. And I couldn't be happier.
The problem with internet forums is all the newbies and retards voicing their opinions while the intelligent folks are outside shooting.
aizan
Veteran
after a ff digital m comes out, i expect they'll probably continue the a la carte program and make some special editions, but regular production would stop.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
NB23 said:
My god you can be 'Mr Charm' at times Ned!
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bmattock
Veteran
NB23 said:
Yeah, you're a rocket scientist.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
There's always Canon.xayraa33 said:
rogerchristian
Established
Keith said:
Canon decided to make the change when it was painfully apprent there was no way to carry the FD mount forward into the new AF age, same for Minolta/Maxxum.
It seems possible to make an argument on both sides, but, tradition aside, Nikon, Canon and Minolta all made major or minor changes to the lens mount, for better or worse. There just came a time when 'it was essential', and to move forward and keep advancing the line, they made the 'right' decision. The moves sparked a new round of sales to new(er) consumers, and maintained the lines longer than they might have otherwise lasted.
And, evolution, if not revolution, is inevitable. Maybe it IS 'time'.
Shed a tear, drink a beer (none of tha light stuff either), and celebrate the new life which may be breathed into the line.