what's a good solid M body?

[abenner]

I presume many here are "fondlers" and don't go and put 30 rolls through your M-body in an evening stroll.

I've always denied it, but there's no more resistance... Call me a fondler!

 

[abenner]

If your evening stroll would last 6 hours that means you would shoot 2 (24 frame rolls) to 3 (36 frame rolls) photos EACH minute!!!

Don't forget, you're not allowing time for the rewinding of the film, which of course was the genesis for this thread...

And even then you're not allowing for the time it takes to fix your broken rewind mechanism, if you're using an M4-P or M6!

(just having fun)

 

[rover]

 

[Sparrow]

that looks like a particularly robust rabbit you have there, do you take it on your evening stroll


🙂

 

[BillP]

Man: "Blimey! Where did that unsightly thing come from?"
Pancake: "It started out as a pimple on my arse..."

Regards,

Bill

 

[rover]

that looks like a particularly robust rabbit you have there, do you take it on your evening stroll


🙂

Tragically, the poor Pancake Bunny passed, but she never had a problem with her rewind crank.

 

[tripod]

Rabbits rarely do, unlike those cheaply built Leicas.

 

[R2-D2]

I don't think he is trolling.

Why is everyone feeling so offended? Why the need to defend the brand at such great extent?

It's not about a brand, it's about reasonability.

 

[lemos]

It's not about a brand, it's about reasonability.

reasoning threads are not supposed to last that long.

but I'll take a bit of column A, and a bit of column B.

 

[Pherdinand]

hehe, this is a funny thread, thanks dudes.
Now i go and rewind some film in my clunky m2.

 

[ampguy]

thanks

thanks

for your sincere and mature reply, I will comment beneath your quotes:

Ted, I'm sorry if I sounded offensive in my previous post. I'm going to take you seriously. The thing is, comments like

no problem.

> are just wrong, there are plenty of us that can vouch for that. If you have been through a lot of Leica bodies, and find this happening to you all the time - well, I'm sorry for you (and I mean that). You can say a lot of different things about Leica and their M range, but "cheaply made" simply isn't one of them.

not all of them, just the M4P and M6, as have dozens of others if you use a proper search engine like google. The fact that 150K cameras were made, and only 50 posts is irrelevant to me. Most old camera owners and active users don't sit around on camera forums, while virtually all rangefinder related camera forum posters own an old camera. The cameras may not have been cheaply made when originally built, but they have, in my opinion and evaluation, become unreliable after decades of either active use, or idle sitting, unless they have had regular repairs and servicing. This is to be expected, but my original post and concerns are that the M4P, and M6, and M7 (to be seen) are showing quite a lot of failures with the washers in the rewind system, and I have experienced two of these failures myself, and have read literally dozens of similar experiences.

> Kind off. I've owned the lot, except for the R4. The Bessa R2 is what it is. I consider it to be the worst M body out there, due to the fact that I've owned a couple, and they all had viewfinder alignment problems. All the time. Now, a lot of people use it, and love it, so I'm putting this down to bad luck on my behalf. The newer ones are better, but nowhere near any Leica M out there.

So the Leica M's are still better in your opinion because the VF's stay put better, and overall build quality, etc., but unless someone has other info., it appears that Bessas do not suffer from rewind washers breaking down, perhaps it is because they are newer? Or [gasp] the Bessa rewind system is just designed better, or uses a better washer material??

I wonder why the Bessa viewfinders can't be adjusted properly and then glued down, like Don Goldberg did with one of my RD1s?


> If you have had nothing but problems with the M4-P and M6, I can't understand why you are even considering the CL/CLE. Like, seriously? If the M6 is "old" and "cheaply made", what is the CL/CLE?

Well they do have an M mount for my M lenses, and they would be like disposable cameras, get one until it dies, then get another, e.g. cheaper than doing the same with an M2/3/6/7/8


> I've owned and used both the M7 and Hexar RF, they are both good. The Hexar RF isn't a Leica, but I wouldn't hesitate recommending it. The M7, well - I sold it. It's quiet, with an electronic shutter. That may or may not be what you are looking for. Any camera may break down. One of the M6 I bought a while back came from a professional photographer. It was his only 35mm camera, and it had been used extensively for 15 years. I picked it up at his studio, and he had file cabinets with negatives. His estimate? Somewhere between 10,000 and 15,000 rolls of film over the years with no service or any problems. He asked me repeatedly if I really wanted to buy such a "used" camera, and I said that a camera with such a track record was exactly what I was looking for. It came back from a CLA now, and I have every confidence in it.

Interesting story. I liked the Hexar RF as well, may get another.

> I think you're out of options, really. If you find that the M3, M2, M4-P and M6 is out of the question you might give the MP a shot. Get a new one with full warranty (about $4500). If you go through 30 rolls a month or more, the initial investment is really peanuts if you're dedicated to film. I'm thinking about this myself, and I have an MP on its way. Not sure if it is better than my M6's, but I look forward to trying it out. If you're looking at spending $500 for a camera that will last forever, well - you're out of luck. And service costs doesn't make any camera "overpriced", it is part of the cost of ownership. Like said before: Spending a couple of hundred $'s on a service every now and then, it really isn't worth thinking about.

The MP doesn't appeal to me, the rewind needs 3rd party accessories to rewind quickly, and the price is outrageous to me.

> Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Thanks! I'm considering going back to an M6 one of these days, and just getting the tools and learning to replace the cheezy washers myself. I might remake the camera and call it the "HAM" for Hardened Ampguy M6 😛

 

[ferider]

1) As I answered in the poll thread, I am convinced that - while maybe not the prettiest and smoothest Leica - the M6 and later M4P are actually the sturdiest Leicas, certainly sturdier than the MP, _because_ of the zinc covers and steel gears; one of the reasons why the M6 has been Leicas second most successful M body (in production volume). I've dropped an M6 from shoulder height and nothing happened. With more pressure, the zinc covers will crack, while on an MP you would get bumps and dings with less pressure.

2) the CL has an all-metal body. Short RF make it very robust, except for the moving meter cell. But then, who needs a meter.

3) While the CLE is a great camera, it is not an all-metal camera. Might look like metal, but top and bottom covers are plastic, covered with a thin metal foil. When dropped, the plastic cracks.

Ted, if Reinhold Messner carried an M4P up the Everest, for sure you can take one on your evening strolls, don't you think ?

Roland.

 

[R2-D2]

reasoning threads are not supposed to last that long.

Really? Is this Lemos' Lemma on thread lengths?

but I'll take a bit of column A, and a bit of column B.

Whatever - just don't take it too serious... ;-)

 

[ampguy]

Hi Roland

Hi Roland

I pretty much agree with you on everything, but I think you're in denial about the weak link in the rewind system of these cameras. Shoot a few more rolls every day, and I guarantee you will run into it within a few months, if not, next first round is on me 😀

BTW, John (not Shaw, some other bookwriter), took his digicam and K1000 mechanical camera out to shoot landscapes in winter. He was surprised that his K1000 froze up, but his digicam kept working. Of course, a K1000 is not a Leica, but just an interesting point that if you keep your digicam and batteries close enough to your body, to maintain it's low op temp, it will survive Everest and beyond. I have taken photos from 10,000 feet or so higher than Everest many times with a variety of film, as well as digicams. I happend to be in an airplane though 😛

1) As I answered in the poll thread, I am convinced that - while maybe not the prettiest and smoothest Leica - the M6 and later M4P are actually the sturdiest Leicas, certainly sturdier than the MP, _because_ of the zinc covers and steel gears; one of the reasons why the M6 has been Leicas second most successful M body (in production volume). I've dropped an M6 from shoulder height and nothing happened. With more pressure, the zinc covers will crack, while on an MP you would get bumps and dings with less pressure.

2) the CL has an all-metal body. Short RF make it very robust, except for the moving meter cell. But then, who needs a meter.

3) While the CLE is a great camera, it is not an all-metal camera. Might look like metal, but top and bottom covers are plastic, covered with a thin metal foil. When dropped, the plastic cracks.

Ted, if Reinhold Messner carried an M4P up the Everest, for sure you can take one on your evening strolls, don't you think ?

Roland.

 

[ampguy]

One more thing about the CL, it obviously wouldn't be good for focusing very fast lenses, but it might be OK with slower lenses, and if I got another, I would probably clip the meter bar arm off with garden shears, and gain 1-2 stops with less vibration, and also be able to mount collapsible lenses, and deep lenses like the J12 35/2.8. This would be the "CL-IS" model, get it - "Image Stabilized" ;D

 

[ferider]

Hmm. A meter-less CL might be very robust. Ask Joe, he can tell you how to take the meter out without garden equipment 🙂


BTW, for the price of your RD1, you can buy 5 or so CLs, and just keep swapping for a while if they break. That might get you through your stressful strolls 🙂

Cheers,

Roland.

 

[ampguy]

Interesting Erik

Interesting Erik

Was it owned or used by anyone in the famous Krakauer book?

My M4 is one of two M4´s on Everest in 1984 as well...

 

[f/stopblues]

Reading this thread, I think the expression on my face is similar to when I watch Bush speak. 😎

 

[ferider]

How about taking the meter out of an M5 ? 🙂 ROFL

 

[ampguy]

Sounds about right

Sounds about right

the question is:

5 CLs or 2 or 3 Leica M4Ps/6s or and 4 or 5 Bessas - which is the best combo, to ensure something is always working?

Hmm. A meter-less CL might be very robust. Ask Joe, he can tell you how to take the meter out without garden equipment 🙂


BTW, for the price of your RD1, you can buy 5 or so CLs, and just keep swapping for a while if they break. That might get you through your stressful strolls 🙂

Cheers,

Roland.