fotobiblios
Established
Which of these 1960's cameras to choose?
Mamiya has a wider range of focal lengths, but I hear better reports of the 4 Konica lenses.
Mamiya is ultimately more flexible, but is it as 'useable'?
Any thoughts from users?
Both seem to offer big quality pix for little money.
(Or should one start saving for Mamiya 7?)
Mamiya has a wider range of focal lengths, but I hear better reports of the 4 Konica lenses.
Mamiya is ultimately more flexible, but is it as 'useable'?
Any thoughts from users?
Both seem to offer big quality pix for little money.
(Or should one start saving for Mamiya 7?)
dazedgonebye
Veteran
I have a beater Koni-Omega. It's an interesting and capable camera. Odd in some ways and very different from anything else I've shot.
It is very capable and I wish I had other lenses for it (I've only got the 90mm) but I've moved on to a Pentax 6x7.
It is very capable and I wish I had other lenses for it (I've only got the 90mm) but I've moved on to a Pentax 6x7.
zgauthier
Member
I've got a koni-omega as well. It is indeed fairly indestructible. Mine is without a doubt my most beat up looking camera, but it just keeps on working. The image quality is superb with the 90mm lens I have. However, I've had some trouble really finding a place for it. By that I mean it's way too heavy for walking around with, and I'd much rather use something with ground glass in the studio. I'm not totally satisfied with the available lens lineup either. The 90 is great, I don't really want the 60mm, the 135 is super rare, and the 180 only focusses down to 12 feet or so. You can't use extension rings due to the rf coupling.
My Koni Omega with the 90mm is a fantastic camera. I just haven't figured out for what yet. I'm not giving up anytime soon though. Its a huge chick magnet when I drag it through town.
My Koni Omega with the 90mm is a fantastic camera. I just haven't figured out for what yet. I'm not giving up anytime soon though. Its a huge chick magnet when I drag it through town.
oftheherd
Veteran
I and several others here own Mamiya Super 23 or Universal cameras. Mine is the Super Press 23, from the mid-70s. I bought it new. I love that camera. It is a true system camera. You can change lenses and backs. There are film backs for 6x7 (what I own) as well as 6x9 and one for 645, 6x6, and 6x9 (Personally I never wanted one). The 6x7 and 6x9 backs move the film with a film lever, very 35mm like. It does take more than one stroke, but you can also use several small strokes, or two large ones. They came with a handle on the left of the camera that had a shutter release cable as well. All in all, surprisinly 35mm like in handling.
It isn't light, but neither is it too heavy imho. A wide strap helps with that. I have the 100mm collapsable lens, needed on the Super Press if you want to use the bellows back. You can mount lenses with a set of extension tubes for closeup photos, but then you need the ground glass back(s). There were about 4 of those. Three that excepted sheet film, and one that was a ground glass only.
Besides the 100mm normal lens, there was a 250mm (135 equivalent), a 150mm (75mm equivalent), a 65mm (28mm equivalent), and a 50mm (25mm equivalent). There were also some other lenses, a 90mm for the older cameras, and some for Polaroid use(Unversal only). I can vouch that all the lenses were very good, except for the 250mm which I have never had. Btw, there were two 250mm lenses. The f/8 did not rf couple. The other did.
You can look on ebay for examples of what I have mentioned. All sell from time to time. Some are more rare, such as the 50mm and the 250mm. They aren't cheap either. The other items usually sell for a decent price, if you don't jump on the first example that shows up. The cameras in my opinio are rugged if treated with respect. I have had mine for more than 30 years. I have purchased items off the 'bay without problems as well.
As to size, it isn't small, but bery usable. Or at least I found it so. It has frame lines form 100mm, 150mm and 250mm. The others require an aux viewfinder. Still, I like it and sure like the 6x7 negative/slide size. I find it easier to use in its own way, than a TLR, but that may just be me. All focus by turning the lens, and the shutters are in the lenses. In my opinion, you would prefer the Press/Universal, but that is of course, just my opinion.
It isn't light, but neither is it too heavy imho. A wide strap helps with that. I have the 100mm collapsable lens, needed on the Super Press if you want to use the bellows back. You can mount lenses with a set of extension tubes for closeup photos, but then you need the ground glass back(s). There were about 4 of those. Three that excepted sheet film, and one that was a ground glass only.
Besides the 100mm normal lens, there was a 250mm (135 equivalent), a 150mm (75mm equivalent), a 65mm (28mm equivalent), and a 50mm (25mm equivalent). There were also some other lenses, a 90mm for the older cameras, and some for Polaroid use(Unversal only). I can vouch that all the lenses were very good, except for the 250mm which I have never had. Btw, there were two 250mm lenses. The f/8 did not rf couple. The other did.
You can look on ebay for examples of what I have mentioned. All sell from time to time. Some are more rare, such as the 50mm and the 250mm. They aren't cheap either. The other items usually sell for a decent price, if you don't jump on the first example that shows up. The cameras in my opinio are rugged if treated with respect. I have had mine for more than 30 years. I have purchased items off the 'bay without problems as well.
As to size, it isn't small, but bery usable. Or at least I found it so. It has frame lines form 100mm, 150mm and 250mm. The others require an aux viewfinder. Still, I like it and sure like the 6x7 negative/slide size. I find it easier to use in its own way, than a TLR, but that may just be me. All focus by turning the lens, and the shutters are in the lenses. In my opinion, you would prefer the Press/Universal, but that is of course, just my opinion.
HSI
The Fourth
I just received my Super 23 after a long overhaul at Tony Sasone's residence.
I haven't much time to put it through it's paces, but from what I have experienced thus far with it:
- I am disliking the right handed focusing implemented by the left handed grip, and am now considering not using the grip at all.
- The camera has a vertical tripod socket, but with the 6x9 back attached, it becomes quite useless.
- And as the above poster noted, it is too heavy for a walk around camera but the groundglass is nothing to be desired in the studio.
I just feel that the camera bridges a gap that is unbridgeable. The Fuji rangefinders do a better job for walking around being built like a giant Leica whereas a 4x5 covers the studio work with ease.
I'm considering offering it up, but I've yet to really run some film through it.
Albert
I haven't much time to put it through it's paces, but from what I have experienced thus far with it:
- I am disliking the right handed focusing implemented by the left handed grip, and am now considering not using the grip at all.
- The camera has a vertical tripod socket, but with the 6x9 back attached, it becomes quite useless.
- And as the above poster noted, it is too heavy for a walk around camera but the groundglass is nothing to be desired in the studio.
I just feel that the camera bridges a gap that is unbridgeable. The Fuji rangefinders do a better job for walking around being built like a giant Leica whereas a 4x5 covers the studio work with ease.
I'm considering offering it up, but I've yet to really run some film through it.
Albert
oftheherd
Veteran
I had only used one other RF (an Olympus) when I got the Super Press 23. I guess for that reason it was easy to get used to holding with my left hand and focusing with my right. It may slow some people down, but then for all it always seemed 35mm like, it isn't intended to be a shotgun camera. I think you will get used to it if you start taking photos with it.
There was a vertical mechanism made that allowed the camera to go verticle. It was sort of a half circle. I never saw one in the wild, but have seen some on ebay. I also have a Mamiya heavy duty tripod that will hold it in the verticle.
Of course, I have never used it in a studio, so I can't really comment on that. There were at least two focusing backs made with eye viewing. One I think even magnified. They also show up on ebay once in a while. I never had one as they cost more than I wnated to pay. I had the focusing back with a folding-up cover for the ground glass, as well as the simple focusing back that did not take cut film holders. I found I didn't use them as much as I thought I would.
It is a heavy camera compared to 35mm cameras. But with a wide strap it isn't that bad, at least in my opinion. And look at what you get; interchangable lenses and backs, as well as extension tubes, and that big negative.
I never had a 6x9 back but I think all backs were the same outward size. I never had the problems you mention in using it. As I said, that probably has to do with the fact I got it early on to my reintroduction to photography, having primarlly used 35mm SLR's, one 35mm rf, and a Yashica 124 MAT G. And all that for the love of it, even when I was taking crime scene photos. Learning the Super Press was just another fun thing to do.
Give it a chance. I think you will like it. It won't be the only camera you will want to use, but it does have its place. I can carry it with two extra lenses, and extr back, and some film, with a light tripod, and not die. Sheesh, 30 years ago, I carried it along with a big 35mm bag around the mountains of Korea. (I was dummer if stronger then I guess).
HSI
The Fourth
You give me hope for this camera,
but I just can't use it with the Leica.
(They both focus the opposite way)
but I just can't use it with the Leica.
(They both focus the opposite way)
kievman
Kievman
I have the Mamiya Universal ans an old 23 (from the 60's) Body, Plus 3 lens. The 65mm 100mm and the 150mm. all of them are very sharp. Sharp enough for slide film. I have two backs, the 6x7, and the 6x9 back. the neg is huge on the 6x9 back almost as much resolution as a 4x5 neg. I fiigure I can get 60x90 in. prints with the 6x9 back. Maybe even better with a better scanner. I have the ground screen back and a polaroid back, Both of whick can be very handy. Yes the universal is large and heavy camera, and is built like a tank! I have no problem shooting it hand held using either backs as a grip, they work perfectly. most of the time i use a tripod. You will need the aux view finder if you use the 65mm or 50 mm lens.
Cant speak for the Koni -omega, but a lot of pros used the Mimaya univeral system for years before and after the advent of thr Mamiya RB 67 system came out.
One finall note- with the 6x9 back the 65mm equals a 28mm and wiith the 6x7 back it equals a 35 mm. so if you want the full wide angle lens effect, you will need the 6x9 back - Michael
Cant speak for the Koni -omega, but a lot of pros used the Mimaya univeral system for years before and after the advent of thr Mamiya RB 67 system came out.
One finall note- with the 6x9 back the 65mm equals a 28mm and wiith the 6x7 back it equals a 35 mm. so if you want the full wide angle lens effect, you will need the 6x9 back - Michael
oftheherd
Veteran
That has long been a complaint of photographers using different systems, whether in 35mm or 35mm to MF. It is a matter of getting used to it or getting a different mind set, or whatever. But I understand. It can be aggravating until you get used to it. It is easy to say with MF you are supposed to slow down. But with the Universal/Super Press being so 35mm like in handling, that doesn't track.
HSI
The Fourth
Well I'm not going to slow down for any camera.
But the Mamiya is manageable with some 400 speed film and steady hand.
oftheherd
Veteran
I think you are going to have a long enjoyable relationship with your Mamiya.
HSI
The Fourth
Well I still need to pay for my 65mm and second 6x9 back.
I'm just a little worried about the external VF. Those things are whack.
I'm just a little worried about the external VF. Those things are whack.
oftheherd
Veteran
What is it that you worry about? They work fine. At least for me. In fact, I have the 50mm without viewfinder, and I found that using 6x7 backs (all I have), the 65mm finder at 6x9 tics is just about right. I can use it for both.
Focus and then go to the viewfinder. It is not as complicated as it sounds. It just becomes part of the "workflow" with that camera. And the camera becomes fun to use as you see more and more of those nice 6x7 negatives. Quit stressing! Just get out and use it. You will find you like it more the more you use it.
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bsdunek
Old Guy with a Corgi
I have the Super 23 with 50mm, 90mm & 250mm lenses. The 50mm viewfinder is fine. It does have a vertical parallax adjustment.
I have hand carried it all over, and while it's a bit heavy, it's also steady.
As for the left grip and right hand focussing, it's just a matter of using it. You get used to it real fast.
Just IMHO
I have hand carried it all over, and while it's a bit heavy, it's also steady.
As for the left grip and right hand focussing, it's just a matter of using it. You get used to it real fast.
Just IMHO
HSI
The Fourth
Alright, alright, alright, I can see that you guys truly love the Super 23.
As for me, it is going to take a while for me to get the hang of this 8 exposure
rule and the backasswards focusing...
-
But I will post more negatives from it soon enough.
(Got some Fuji 160S on the way)
Albert
As for me, it is going to take a while for me to get the hang of this 8 exposure
rule and the backasswards focusing...
-
But I will post more negatives from it soon enough.
(Got some Fuji 160S on the way)
Albert
kuzano
Veteran
Have had the Konis, the Universal and Super 23
Have had the Konis, the Universal and Super 23
The weak link on the koni is the back, often losing proper framing. They quite often need rebuilding. The noise of cycling the film transport is deafening. Would love to know the decibel output. The lenses are quite good, but I seriously doubt they would outshoot almost all the lenses in the Mamiya line. Nice sharp pics edge to edge. I think its the 135 that's almost impossible to find and very pricy when you do. Easier to find the wide angle, but also pricy when you do.
The Universal is WAY more versatile than the Super 23. Granted the Super 23 has a modest bellows action on the back. However, it only works with the 100m lens that retracts into the focus helical. Not all the 100's for that matter are retractable. I don't think any of the other lenses retract, which precludes the use of the bellows, as I understand it. Had 3 of the Super 23's and never used the bellows at all. The Universal has a much broader range of back options. Regarding the tripod socket, there is a socket attachment for the side of the 2 Mamiya models that replaces the hand grip and allows mounting the camera on it's side on a tripod, which gives you portrait mode shooting. The standard 100 w/3.5 fstop. There is also a 2.8 100m lens which is much sharper. Not that hard to find. The Universal will take polaroid pack film backs due to the larger opening in the back. That means the Universal has the potential to use a modified back shooting larger film. There is a Very Sharp 75mm that was made for the Polaroid 600SE. It can often be found in a Mamiya mount, since it is a Mamiya Sekor lens to begin with. There is a popular urban myth that since the Polaroid 600SE was built by Mamiya the lenses are interchangable. The contract for the lens mount design precluded that possibility. You cannot cross mount Mamiya Universal and Polaroid 600SE mounts. That lens and a very sharp 50 mm lens shoot larger formats for the Polaroid back, with the 75 almost reaching 4X5 coverage. I've used on on a 4X5 with some vignetting on the corners, but still a much larger usable image than 6X9.
After making the move from Koni to Mamiya, I found out how limited the Koni was.
However, the Mamiya was overkill on "system concept". I was always on the hunt for pieces for the system. There are still a lot of pieces available. Moreso than for the Koni. But the most attractive pieces, like the 2.8 100 are in demand and pricey.
So, now I shoot an old and wonderful G690bl. No complications and sharper than both the Koni and most of the Mamiya lenses. The only piece I can add is the 65mm lens, which I am always watching for... Hmmmm... maybe I need a fixed lens later model Fuji 690.
I have learned to love the simple life. Less to hunt for, less to pay for, and thankfully, less to tote.
Have had the Konis, the Universal and Super 23
The weak link on the koni is the back, often losing proper framing. They quite often need rebuilding. The noise of cycling the film transport is deafening. Would love to know the decibel output. The lenses are quite good, but I seriously doubt they would outshoot almost all the lenses in the Mamiya line. Nice sharp pics edge to edge. I think its the 135 that's almost impossible to find and very pricy when you do. Easier to find the wide angle, but also pricy when you do.
The Universal is WAY more versatile than the Super 23. Granted the Super 23 has a modest bellows action on the back. However, it only works with the 100m lens that retracts into the focus helical. Not all the 100's for that matter are retractable. I don't think any of the other lenses retract, which precludes the use of the bellows, as I understand it. Had 3 of the Super 23's and never used the bellows at all. The Universal has a much broader range of back options. Regarding the tripod socket, there is a socket attachment for the side of the 2 Mamiya models that replaces the hand grip and allows mounting the camera on it's side on a tripod, which gives you portrait mode shooting. The standard 100 w/3.5 fstop. There is also a 2.8 100m lens which is much sharper. Not that hard to find. The Universal will take polaroid pack film backs due to the larger opening in the back. That means the Universal has the potential to use a modified back shooting larger film. There is a Very Sharp 75mm that was made for the Polaroid 600SE. It can often be found in a Mamiya mount, since it is a Mamiya Sekor lens to begin with. There is a popular urban myth that since the Polaroid 600SE was built by Mamiya the lenses are interchangable. The contract for the lens mount design precluded that possibility. You cannot cross mount Mamiya Universal and Polaroid 600SE mounts. That lens and a very sharp 50 mm lens shoot larger formats for the Polaroid back, with the 75 almost reaching 4X5 coverage. I've used on on a 4X5 with some vignetting on the corners, but still a much larger usable image than 6X9.
After making the move from Koni to Mamiya, I found out how limited the Koni was.
However, the Mamiya was overkill on "system concept". I was always on the hunt for pieces for the system. There are still a lot of pieces available. Moreso than for the Koni. But the most attractive pieces, like the 2.8 100 are in demand and pricey.
So, now I shoot an old and wonderful G690bl. No complications and sharper than both the Koni and most of the Mamiya lenses. The only piece I can add is the 65mm lens, which I am always watching for... Hmmmm... maybe I need a fixed lens later model Fuji 690.
I have learned to love the simple life. Less to hunt for, less to pay for, and thankfully, less to tote.
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~martyn~
Member
Koni for me
Koni for me
I have no experience of the Mamiya (though I've used the Polaroid 600SE and liked it a lot). Yes, the Koni-Omega is a heavy so-and-so, but that can be a virtue, esp. handheld at slowish speeds. The only drawback I've found has been the lack of close focus with the 90mm lens -- I reckon about a metre is the closest. But overall it produces lovely images with a strange luminosity (see attachment). I've had no trouble with the film advance so far, but I'm firm with it without being brutal.
Koni for me
I have no experience of the Mamiya (though I've used the Polaroid 600SE and liked it a lot). Yes, the Koni-Omega is a heavy so-and-so, but that can be a virtue, esp. handheld at slowish speeds. The only drawback I've found has been the lack of close focus with the 90mm lens -- I reckon about a metre is the closest. But overall it produces lovely images with a strange luminosity (see attachment). I've had no trouble with the film advance so far, but I'm firm with it without being brutal.
Attachments
oftheherd
Veteran
Nice photo with the Koni. There was a time when I thought I might want one, but the Mamiya 23 has always worked so well for me I preferred to spend my money on lenses and accessories. I agree that the weight of these cameras can work to one's advantage. The in lens shutters do as well, for the photo. Of course, it adds to the cost of each lens.
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~martyn~
Member
Thanks!
As others have said elsewhere, their weight makes them pretty good in a brawl, too. Hopefully I will never need to find out.
Yes, including a shutter within each lens adds to their cost, but -- in spite of the fact that they're often compared very favourably to Hasselblad glass -- they are ridiculously cheap even with the shutter.
oftheherd
Veteran
Thanks!
As others have said elsewhere, their weight makes them pretty good in a brawl, too. Hopefully I will never need to find out.
Yes, including a shutter within each lens adds to their cost, but -- in spite of the fact that they're often compared very favourably to Hasselblad glass -- they are ridiculously cheap even with the shutter.
Yes, considering their sharpness. I guess it has been digital tha has done it. Even 5 years ago they were more expensive.