Vertical screw has no effect on RF - RD1s(?)

[mani]

I'm really disappointed today - took my RD1s with me for an outing in the countryside and discovered that the vertical alignment has suddenly gone totally out.

A quick test at home shows the horizontal (focussing) alignment is still spot-on, but here's the problem: it appears that maybe Rich Cutler is possibly wrong about screw 3 having any effect on the vertical alignment on the RD1s. I ended-up (in very small increments) turning the screw three entire revolutions without any noticeable effect on the patch alignment, whatsoever - not even the most minimal effect.

The screw does in fact seem to be a little 'loose' and is, as I've seen others observe when searching this forum, rather smaller than the image shows on Rich's site for the RD1.

So does this mean a trip back to Robert White to fix the problem? Anyone have any experience of fixing this irritating fault?
I think it's virtually impossible to focus objects that are in the middle distance with this fault, as the parallax effect gives wider-spaced images at greater distances.

Any advice gratefully received (by someone who's really been enjoying the Epson, so far).

 

[LCT]

Sorry Mani but i have warned about this long ago here.
I've had the same experience with my R-D1s which was different to my R-D1 from this standpoint.
The R-D1s was under warranty so i've had it adjusted for free fortunately.
Looks like DIY can work as well but removing the top plate could be mandatory if i understand well.

 

[mani]

Hi LCT!
Thanks for responding.
Yes, it was your observations I was referring to above, so I was at least a little prepared for the disappointment.

But the main problem is this: up until yesterday morning the vertical alignment has been perfect. I haven't dropped, mishandled or shaken the camera in any way, so it seems to me that having Robert White align the RF is virtually useless, because the problem can recur at any time.

So does anyone know - is this fixable if I take off the top plate and adjust some other way?
Or is it alternatively possible that a local camera expert may be able to fix this, if they're familiar with Bessas?

I had a look at the images that I'd tried to focus with the double image, and anything in the middle distance that I tried to focus is totally out.

 

[LCT]

...up until yesterday morning the vertical alignment has been perfect. I haven't dropped, mishandled or shaken the camera in any way, so it seems to me that having Robert White align the RF is virtually useless, because the problem can recur at any time...

Hi Mani. That is what i thought as well but the problem did not recur since i've had the R-D1s adjusted by Epson France in October 2006. Now each time i take it out i fear that a disalignment occurs again so i use preferably the R-D1 when i don't need two bodies.

 

[mani]

Okay - thanks again LCT. I'll consider what to do.
Ideally I'd like to hear if anyone's successfully altered the vertical alignment some other way in this particular model (which may not be all RD1s's).

If no-one has any advice for diy adjustment, my first move will be to take it along to Lpfoto or Schönnherrsfoto in Stockholm to see if they can fix the problem. Otherwise, I guess it'll be a trip back to Robert White and/or Epson... and then I may be selling the camera when the problem is fixed. Which is a severely depressing conclusion, as it's been great - but I really can't be bothered with a rangefinder mechanism that is both sensitive and difficult to fix.

 

[efkbl]

Sorry to hear your problem. I can't tell you exactly how to fix it, as I have a R-D1 (not s except for the firmware), but my guess is that if you remove the top plate, there must be a screw allowing easy vertical rangefinder adjustment somewhere. It is most probably near the other screws.

Removing the top plate is quite easy, the only annoying thing is finding some good double-sided tape in order to put the rubber grips back in place. Just be careful and don't forget to unplug the two ribbon cables before removing the plate!

If your camera is not covered by the guaranty anymore, I would give it a try before shipping it to France or to the U.S.

 

[mani]

Thanks for the support! I guess I'll have to weigh-up the pros and cons of trying to do this myself. Certainly sending the camera away seems futile if it can be knocked easily and unpredictably out of alignment again at any time.
I'll try to find out more - but really Rich Cutler's site is the only information out there (thank goodness for him!), but in this isolated case, his information seems to be inaccurate (or at least concerning my camera), so I'm on my own...

Sad state of affairs for what is such a great, but orphaned, camera....

 

[RichC]

Rich Cutler's site is the only information out there ... his information seems to be inaccurate (or at least concerning my camera)

R-D1s owners have definitely adjusted their cameras as I describe. However, yours is not an isolated example, so Im beginning to think that there may be some R-D1s cameras with a revised rangefinder mechanism.

Unfortunately, as you point out, info on the R-D1/R-D1s is bloody hard to find!

If you do decide to adjust your camera, would you be so kind as to take pics and note any differences from the R-D1, so I can update my website?

(I sold the R-D1 almost a year ago and bought a Leica M8, mainly because it's more robust, and if it breaks or needs servicing (even years in the future), it'll be a lot easier getting it sorted out! Also, I print big (20 inches), and the R-D1 prints although good couldn't compare with my friend's Canon 5D prints - in contrast, the M8 images are outstanding (as they should be considering how much the camera costs!

Despite no longer owning an R-D1, I'm still maintaining the R-D1 website, and do update it, as it's no hassle and there doesn't seem to be another site with all that info.)

 

[efkbl]

Just a thought, but if your vertical adjustment is totally out and the screw seems a bit loose, it could be that the screw has gotten out of its thread.

In this case, putting it back into place could be a bit tricky through the hot shoe because of the angle involved, but it may be possible though if you carefully turn it clockwise while tying to maintain it as vertical as possible.

Edit: It's a bit difficult to see, but on Rich's website there is the best side picture I could find of this screw:
http://www.richcutler.co.uk/r-d1/jlw_R-D1/source/r-d1_06.html
It seems to go through a black kind of fixed collar before being screwed in a thin silver metal plate (or maybe in a small nut?).
This could explain that the screw stays in place and can be freely turned, but with no effect.
If it was screwed in a nut, you will have to remove the top plate tu put it back (and find it first!), otherwise you can try to screw it as described above.
You could also check if the screw is really loose using a magnet screwdriver.

 

[mani]

Hi guys!
Sorry for the late response - I've been at a conference for a couple of days. I'll certainly do my best to document the process, if I give the fix a try - I'm still slightly wary of opening the camera up, to be honest.

Thanks for the help - it's actually so great to see the spirit of helpfulness that surrounds this camera. With all due respect to you Rich, when you see what happens to some M8 owners over on l-camera forum, coming back here is such a breath of fresh air!

Regards - Mani

 

[mani]

Here's an update:
Before opening up the top-plate, I decided to try one more time to adjust screw 3 through the top-plate as suggested by efkbl - turning clockwise to possibly re-engage the screw in it's seating.
Well, the trick (pretty much) worked (with some minimal downside). The double image is immeasurably improved (though not perfect at infinity), but close focus is spot-on again.

The downside is that the screw was extremely hard to shift at all, and the tiny screwdriver head continually slipped out (not least because of the angle) slightly damaging the screw, making me nervous of pushing the fix (and my luck) any further.

I'll be getting in touch with a jeweler friend of mine to find out where and how to buy a set of jeweler's screwdrivers, for when I need to do this again.

What more can one say about the Epson that hasn't already been said? It really is an awesome camera when everything's working fine - but in so many ways it's like a sensitive British sport's car that one has to continually tinker with (or occasionally hit with a spanner - as it feels like I did today).

Rich - thanks once more for the site. I saw you'd switched to the M8 - and it seems like you're enjoying it. I felt that the RD1s was enough of an investment for me right now - at least until we see what might emerge from Leica and/or Nikon in the near future...

 

[efkbl]

Nice to hear that it worked! So it seems that the same screw is used for vertical adjustment on the R-D1S and on the R-D1. I hope you will be able to set it perfectly once you get a good screwdriver (or a bigger spanner to hit it).

Regards,

Eric

 

[mani]

Hi Eric

Yes it does seem like it - but I definitely felt that the screw had far too much resistance than it should have done, if it was meant for normal adjustment (esp through the hotshoe). If anything, it felt like the screw was almost fixed in place - but I'll be keeping a close eye, and as I said, I'll be getting some better tools to help with the next adjustment...

(incidentally, in my earlier post I inadvertently wrote I worked through the top-plate, when I meant hotshoe - just for clarification).

Mani

 

[crawdiddy]

Always preferred the horizontal screw, myself.

 

[RichC]

Rich - thanks once more for the site. I saw you'd switched to the M8 - and it seems like you're enjoying it. I felt that the RD1s was enough of an investment for me right now

Glad to hear you sorted your R-D1s, Mani - and for confirming that the vertical adjustment screw in the R-D1s does adjust...

As for the M8. See that really nice Le Mans on my website? Well, I had to sell that - and the R-D1 - to buy the Leica and a couple of lenses. Wasn't sure I'd done the right thing at the time, but having a print accepted for the Royal Photographic Society's International Print Exhibition makes me feel better (3000 entries, 124 chosen)! 😀

Time in Entropy (Leica M8, Summilux 35/1.4 pre-aspherical)

 

[mani]

Hi Rich -
Congratulations on your image! It's a great shot!
Concerning the fix - couldn't have done it without your help - seriously.
I don't think I'd have bought the Epson without having seen your site first, and realizing that there was support for the camera, even though in this case it was a helpful third-party rather than the manufacturer themselves.

Anyway, I'll take the camera out again today and see how it performs - as I said, there were three elements that were interesting from a technical pov:

1. I turned the screw in the 'wrong' direction in order to reposition the vertical alignment

2. The screw was way too hard to turn for it to have felt like a normal adjustment: it felt rather like the screw wasn't meant to be used for adjustments at all.

3. I wasn't able to completely correct the vertical adjustment that's visible at infinity.

In view of this I think I may see if someone locally can look into the RF mechanism (if anyone knows of any person who's done this in Sweden, please let me know), and failing that option, I may send the camera off to Robert White, while it's still under warranty (though I'll probably wait until after my vacation to do this).

Thanks again to all for their help!

 

[mani]

Well I'm rather confused now.

Essentially the RF image is much better now, and gives me 'snapping' pretty much like it did before the vertical misalignment.
Furthermore, at closest focussing range (1 meter on the Noctilux or the Elmarit 90 2.8) the focus is spot-on to the millimeter.

HOWEVER, objects at medium distance (say 7 or 10 meters) are NOT focussed as expected, but are in fact quite out - so a person at that distance has no point in focus at all.

Anyone explain what I can do about this? Should I just give up at this point and get the fix done by R. White? Any advice is very gratefully received.

 

[efkbl]

You may have to adjust all the screws until focus is correct at all distances then. As mentioned on Rich's page, all screws have a slight effect on each other... Try to set infinity focus with screw 2. If it is not enough to correct focus at all distances, the you will have to remove the top plate to set close focus with screw 4.

 

[LCT]

...objects at medium distance (say 7 or 10 meters) are NOT focussed as expected, but are in fact quite out - so a person at that distance has no point in focus at all. Anyone explain what I can do about this?...

FWIW i never adjust my RF at infinity. I do it at medium distance i.e., say, at 2 meters and 10 meters. Slight misalignments at longer distances are compensated with DoF.

 

[mani]

Well yes it does look like further adjustments are necessary. The mystery to me is what happened to the RF to make the alignment go out in both the vertical and apparently also horizontal? I've been pretty much babying the camera by always carrying it in a padded bag and avoiding any jolts.
Also I'm mystified how the close-focus appears unaffected, while the medium and infinity focus went out (together with the vertical).

Incidentally, can anyone explain to me why RF adjustment is made as difficult as possible (if not almost totally impossible?) I think I remember seeing a Canon RF from the 50s that had external dials for adjustment (or did I dream that?)
Think how many trips back to the manufacturer could be saved if a small tweak on a couple of dials kept behind a folding seal was all that was needed to get focussing spot-on again...