6x9 wide angle?

[Ben Blacket]

I have a Mamiya Press 50mm that I planned to adapt to a 6x9 body, but it's never eventuated. I chose it over the 47mm Angulon cos there's no light fall-off (no need for a centre filter) & it has the focus mount built in.
This bloke made his own with a 47mm Super Angulon:
http://flickr.com/photos/zab/sets/72057594096324064/
You could just set the lens at its hyperfocal distance & not worry about the focus mount.

 

[Rogier]

Wow that's a very nice home brew camera!

 

[dazedgonebye]

I owned an XLSW for some time. I really thought it would be my wide medium format salvation. Somehow though, I just never managed to pull anything good out of it. Nothing wrong with it as far as I could tell and others have made it work. I just couldn't for some darn reason.
I love the simplicity of it.

 

[oftheherd]

I have a Mamiya Press 50mm that I planned to adapt to a 6x9 body, but it's never eventuated. I chose it over the 47mm Angulon cos there's no light fall-off (no need for a centre filter) & it has the focus mount built in.
This bloke made his own with a 47mm Super Angulon:
http://flickr.com/photos/zab/sets/72057594096324064/
You could just set the lens at its hyperfocal distance & not worry about the focus mount.

Self designed projects can be fun. I just wonder why not put that 50mm Press lens on a Press body. They aren't that expensive these days. Put a 6x9 back on it and you have an easy to use camera with a stunning wide angle lens.

But, to each his own.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

I think that if you got an old folder, you could remove the bellows, the struts and even the door and create your own superwide. You just need a lens that would cover that. And remember, if you get a 60mm or 75mm lens, then it becomes a more compact camera.

You probably could fashion some bag-type bellows or possibly an aluminum shroud. Could be a very fun project!

You would just want to make sure the lens is set in a shutter and that it covers 6x9.

Of course that can be done but if the lens is worth it you better start from an MF filmholder that has better film transport and better film flatness. More added and you better copy one of the Alpa MF cameras.

Another route is one of the big Polaroid Pathfinder models and a 90 mm lens instead of the 127 mm. It should be possible to adapt the rangefinder to 90 mm. At least I have the lens and a pathfinder but had no time yet.


Ernst Dinkla

 

[David Goldfarb]

Self designed projects can be fun. I just wonder why not put that 50mm Press lens on a Press body. They aren't that expensive these days. Put a 6x9 back on it and you have an easy to use camera with a stunning wide angle lens.

But, to each his own.

I agree. The camera is very nice, but it's not really much more compact than a 2x3" press camera.

 

[oftheherd]

I agree. The camera is very nice, but it's not really much more compact than a 2x3" press camera.

Yessir, but that is because it is a press camera. I only recommended that as the owner of the 50mm Press lens was considering getting away from the original posit of a folding camera.

The Mamiya Universal and Super Press cameras are great with great optics, but they are not small or light. Their size and weight are offset by their performance (at least imho).

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Most folding 6x9 range finders I have found so far have a 100mm lens.
Does any one know of any camera's with a shorter focal length?

Euhh and what about modifying an existing one by putting an other lens on it 😱

Some years ago I tried to find that 6x9 folder with the wide angle lens as well. Nothing really comes close.
The Plenax with 75 mm I mentioned already but I have seen them advertised with longer focal lengths than the page I mentioned says. Most 6x9's either have a 105 mm (Europe) or a 101 mm (4 inches Kodak Anastigmat Specials US, or some prewar Ensigns UK). That's a small difference and often the actual 6x9 frame size has as much deviation. The Bessa I with a Color Skopar 105 mm on a 56x88 mm frame is almost equal in angle to the Monitor with a 101 mm Anastigmat Special on its frame size 56x82 mm. There is the French Demaria La Pierre Telka III with a 95mm 3.5 Sagittar (Tessar design) with coupled rangefinder. Some users say it delivers a good picture. I think it is getting rare these days. I do not know what the actual frame size is on that one.
http://www.geocities.com/antjam65/Telka.html
The original Plaubel Makina IIIR is a 6x9 (or 9,5 ?) with exchangeable lenses, among them a Rapid Wide-Angle Orther 73mmF6.8 (6-Elements in 2-Group) coated, angle of view 72 degree. More a press camera than the usual folder and more expensive too. The redesign with the Nikon 80 mm is expensive too and 6x7 cm.
http://www.cosmonet.org/camera/makina_e.htm
http://www.xs4all.nl/~lommen9/plaubel/index.html
The 645 Fujis with a wideangle are to my knowledge all non-foders but probably deliver better resolution than all the folders I mentioned before but the Nikon Makina.
The 690 Fujis are huge and so are Mamiya Press models and the Koni Omega (all non folders). They offer a good quality at an affordable price though.

The really wide: The Brooks Veriwide has a wider than 6x9 frame but is relatively small in size. 47mm lens. Someone overhere thought it was worth it to equip a Fuji 690 with a Super Angulon 47 mm and keep the rangefinder function on the Fuji. Done by a good camera technician in Holland. It was for sale not so long ago, something like 10K Euro if I recall correctly. Do not forget that the Mamiya 7 II 6x7 with a 43 mm lens beats many custom solutions on wide angle. Even Cambo wide angle cameras or the Alpa with a Biogon 38 mm.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[Rogier]

Wow did I started a tread 🙂

All these other solutions are wonderfull and very tempting.
(I am itching for the Mamiya 7II or Fuji GSW690III)

However, the point is that all these wonderfull camera's are not nearly as light and portable as these old folders. Also the fact that as a photographer you DONT want be taken "seriously" while using it alowing us a different kind of interaction ;-)

I visited a Japanese website the other day (hope I did not loose the URL) that seemed to offer repair and modifications. Have to look that one op again. Perhaps some one else has a alternative source.

 

[shadowfox]

i dont quite follow what you and Jan mean here?

but as i was typing it hit me you probably mean in comparison to 6x6? and as you say the cropping

because i was thinking of the term 'wide angle' i had in my mind the field of veiw on the width of the film. and is this respect its much the same as other formats i.e about 43 deg for 6x9 using 105mm , 39deg for 6x6 using 80mm, 40deg for 35mm using a 50mm lens and so on.....the 6x9 is a touch more i guess but not much

the field of view in height differs of course from 6x9 to 6x6 using the 105mm lens from about 30deg to 39deg again for the 80mm (theres your crop).

still i dont tend to compare 6x9 to 6x6 much, and if i did then one has to crop of course in which case they are simular then. i tend to compare it closer to 35mm because of the aspect ratio and its much the same, but it does vary slightly to 35mm film, i.e. field of veiw in height using a 50mm lens (on 35mm) at 27deg, and the 6x9 at about 30deg using the 105mm. almost the same though eh

nice pics both btw, the autumn colours are nice. was it a coated or uncoated lens out of curiosity?

Yes I meant the cropping effect and the format, that makes shots from a 6x9 looks like wide angle shots. I understand the fact that it's still from a lens with smaller degree of coverage.

That picture is taken using a Heliar lens on an old Bessa RF, if it's coated, probably it's single coated.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Most folding 6x9 range finders I have found so far have a 100mm lens.
Does any one know of any camera's with a shorter focal length?

Euhh and what about modifying an existing one by putting an other lens on it 😱

Not in a folding 6x9, no. The problem would most likely be that it would probably require a retrofocus design, and because retrofocus lenses are longer (having more elements), the camera wouldn't fold up with that lens on it. With modern technology, that wouldn't be a problem anymore, but then they are not making folders anymore.

 

[oftheherd]

...

but then they are not making folders anymore.

sigh :bang:

 

[David Goldfarb]

I don't see why a wideangle folding 6x9 RF would require a retrofocus lens. The bellows would just be shorter with a compact lens like an Angulon or Dagor. A 65mm Angulon should cover 6x9.

 

[FallisPhoto]

I don't see why a wideangle folding 6x9 RF would require a retrofocus lens. The bellows would just be shorter with a compact lens like an Angulon or Dagor. A 65mm Angulon should cover 6x9.

It is because you have a fixed bellows length. You can't just put a non-retrofocus wide angle lens on a folder without completely redesigning the camera. A wide angle lens would have to be retrofocus because it would otherwise need to be closer to the film plane. It's the same reason why SLRs need retrofocus wide angle lenses (because they have to focus past the mirror box behind the lens). This is why cameras like Bessas, Perkeos, Super Ikontas, and so on didn't have wide angle lenses as options. You'd need a totally different camera.

 

[ZeissFan]

Here's one solution that would work:

I was looking at an old Contessa-Nettel folder that I have. The lens slides out on a rail. That serves as the ideal platform for fitting a wider lens to a shutter. It would have to be a simpler design so that it would fit a standard leaf shutter, so that it wouldn't protrude too far from the shutter because you would still need to slide the lens back into the body so that the lens door could close.

By having the lens slide to and fro on a rail, you could collimate the lens to certain distances and attach a new distance scale or engrave the distances on the lens door next to the rail.

Again, you would still need to make sure that your lens could cover that area, but I think this would work for this project.

 

[David Goldfarb]

It is because you have a fixed bellows length. You can't just put a non-retrofocus wide angle lens on a folder without completely redesigning the camera.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about a wideangle folder designed for the purpose, not adapting an existing folder. Adapting an existing folder would require some surgery. Since in general there aren't compact wide retrofocus lenses with sufficient flange to film distance that cover 6x9 and could replace a standard 100mm or 105mm lens, a more likely adaptation would involve some sort of bracket that could put the lens farther back and still fold with the camera.

One other possibility might be afocal adapter lenses (wide and tele converters). I've occasionally seen such things for older fixed lens cameras, but they are not usually considered to be of good optical quality.

 

[schaubild]

...... Do not forget that the Mamiya 7 II 6x7 with a 43 mm lens beats many custom solutions on wide angle. Even Cambo wide angle cameras or the Alpa with a Biogon 38 mm.

Ernst Dinkla

Do you have any facts to substantiate such a statement?

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Do you have any facts to substantiate such a statement?

The facts are dividing the focal length in mm by the diagonal of the film frame. For the Mamiya that would be 43/89,3 = 0,48 The Biogon on the Hasselblad 38/79 = 0,48. The Biogon on the special Alpa 44x66 mm holder 38/79 = 0,48. The Fuji 690 GSW 65/99 = 0.65 at most as I''m not sure the frame length is 82 mm. The customised Fuji 690 with the SA 47 mm 47/99 = 0,475. It is the original Brooks Veriwide that really beats that 0.48 ratio of the Mamiya with 47/115 = 0,41 if that frame length really is 100 mm. All more or less in the spirit of this thread. Relatively compact, MF and wide angle. The bigger Mamiya Press with the 50 mm lens on 6x9 (56 x 82 mm) = 0,50, the Koni Omega 56 mm on 6x7 even more.

Of course the Fotoman, Linhof, etc panorama cameras can go beyond that ratio. Not to mention the Cirkut concepts like the Voyageur that works with 120 film.

In readily available, not breaking the bank, MF, more or less compact and very wide, quality image, the Mamiya 7 II with a 43 mm lens is the obvious answer.


Ernst Dinkla

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Here's one solution that would work:

I was looking at an old Contessa-Nettel folder that I have. The lens slides out on a rail. That serves as the ideal platform for fitting a wider lens to a shutter. It would have to be a simpler design so that it would fit a standard leaf shutter, so that it wouldn't protrude too far from the shutter because you would still need to slide the lens back into the body so that the lens door could close.

By having the lens slide to and fro on a rail, you could collimate the lens to certain distances and attach a new distance scale or engrave the distances on the lens door next to the rail.

Again, you would still need to make sure that your lens could cover that area, but I think this would work for this project.

The Polaroid Pathfinders have that same focusing rail + a rangefinder that can be customised to other focal lengths.
Of the wide angles that can fit on a folder the nicest one must be a Kodak WA Ektar of 80 mm that is considered sharp according to Perez, then a good Schneider Angulon 90 mm or the WA Raptar of 90 mm. It is a pity that there are no 75 mm WAs so small as the combination of the folding structure of a 6x6 on a 6x9 folder body + the 6x9 bellows would make that a nice custom concept. All still moderate WA but foldable.

The new Fuji 80 mm on 6x7 folder could have been a 56x82 instead in my opinion. Would make a wider angle and sell more film for Fuji 🙂

Ernst Dinkla

The

 

[besk]

I have had the same idea for years. Right now I use a 90 Angulon on an old 9X12 folding Voigtlander camera for traveling. (I scale focus.)

You may consider the combination outlined below.

http://coldlake0.tripod.com/MosculonT.html

This gives an angle of view equal to a 28mm lens on a 35mm camera. Scale focusing is very doable on a wide angle such as this. To date I have acquired all of the parts to build a similar rig but hesitate.