italy74
Well-known
Hi guys
let me start by telling you I live in a small town so everything has to be standard and local photographers have all theirs PRO DSLR for weddings... This is something you can see everywhere.
I had too with me - for fun - my F6 with 50 mm and - as expected during this month - I found a wedding.
Well, this couple of photographers working at this wedding during the evening mass really amazed me.
First of all, it was (apparently) all on film, NO dslr around
Man setup:
Leica R8 + Leica 35 F/1.4 (it was SO big, I thought it was a much longer lens) but please don't ask if ASPH or not. I even had the opportunity to handle that combo for a brief moment before the couple exited the church. I was surprised not from the heavier combo (F6 is in magnesium and the 50 mm is really light, R8 + lens were in brass, I suppose) rather by the particular "chubbier" R8 shape, but feeling great in hand.
Woman setup:
Leica R5 + 90 F/2 Apo
Leica M... + 50 F/1.4 (I noticed the lens during a swap but not the camera)
Contax... (167? No idea, I'm not a Contax connoisseur) + Lens
Really beautifully made combos! The woman told me he preferred the R5 and not the M.. because she was shortsighted and the R5 was easier to focus. I wondered if they should have needed a bodyguard.. The least expensive of their cameras was more expensive of my F6 and lens..
Actually, she was shooting b/w all those kid shots out of the church; since I know one friend of the couple I'll give him the dozen of shots I took.. I AM a photographer so I ALWAYS go out with my camera, as often as I can.
Bottom line: I DON'T need a Leica camera, I DON'T need a Leica camera, I DON'T need....
let me start by telling you I live in a small town so everything has to be standard and local photographers have all theirs PRO DSLR for weddings... This is something you can see everywhere.
I had too with me - for fun - my F6 with 50 mm and - as expected during this month - I found a wedding.
Well, this couple of photographers working at this wedding during the evening mass really amazed me.
First of all, it was (apparently) all on film, NO dslr around
Man setup:
Leica R8 + Leica 35 F/1.4 (it was SO big, I thought it was a much longer lens) but please don't ask if ASPH or not. I even had the opportunity to handle that combo for a brief moment before the couple exited the church. I was surprised not from the heavier combo (F6 is in magnesium and the 50 mm is really light, R8 + lens were in brass, I suppose) rather by the particular "chubbier" R8 shape, but feeling great in hand.
Woman setup:
Leica R5 + 90 F/2 Apo
Leica M... + 50 F/1.4 (I noticed the lens during a swap but not the camera)
Contax... (167? No idea, I'm not a Contax connoisseur) + Lens
Really beautifully made combos! The woman told me he preferred the R5 and not the M.. because she was shortsighted and the R5 was easier to focus. I wondered if they should have needed a bodyguard.. The least expensive of their cameras was more expensive of my F6 and lens..
Actually, she was shooting b/w all those kid shots out of the church; since I know one friend of the couple I'll give him the dozen of shots I took.. I AM a photographer so I ALWAYS go out with my camera, as often as I can.
Bottom line: I DON'T need a Leica camera, I DON'T need a Leica camera, I DON'T need....
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Nugard
Elvis lives!..
U NEED a Leica camera
Great setup indeed...
Great setup indeed...
italy74
Well-known
Joking aside, build quality was really stellar.. lenses looked like a solid block of glass and metal, and the matte black just emphatized that...
Chris101
summicronia
Hey Dino! You know what you need is a Lei...
You know!
You know!
Nugard
Elvis lives!..
Like John Lennon said - All you need is L... (Love actually, but in this case) LEICA
vieri
Leica Ambassador
Hey Dino,
how are you? Long time no see, is good to see you here
About your Leica conundrum, I just got a Leica R6.2, a 35, 50, 90 Cron and a 180 2.8 for less than 2.500 euros total, which is the price of a 50 Lux for M, more or less (and two of the lenses are even ROM) my point is, you can get a very good R setup for very little money these days, so - go for it!
how are you? Long time no see, is good to see you here
About your Leica conundrum, I just got a Leica R6.2, a 35, 50, 90 Cron and a 180 2.8 for less than 2.500 euros total, which is the price of a 50 Lux for M, more or less (and two of the lenses are even ROM)
my point is, you can get a very good R setup for very little money these days, so - go for it! Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dino,
You must have been mistaken. EVERYBODY knows that no-one uses Leicas commercially.
(Well, not everyone. But quite a few people on this forum. Many of whom, I suspect, have never earned a penny with a camera in their lives.)
Cheers,
R.
You must have been mistaken. EVERYBODY knows that no-one uses Leicas commercially.
(Well, not everyone. But quite a few people on this forum. Many of whom, I suspect, have never earned a penny with a camera in their lives.)
Cheers,
R.
italy74
Well-known
Ciao Vieri
I look to your avatar: are you hiding like a temptator devil, aren't you? Of course actually this gear is less expensive than once, but it makes in any case its "porca figura" as we say in Italy (no idea how to render this concept in English, sorry), isn't it?
About me, I'm trying to "rationalize" what I already have, not to add other.. it's not an endless lust I want, you know...
I'm waiting next PMA, since I think we'll see a lot of news from Nikon, Zeiss and maybe Leica too. Only then I'll decide what to do, but in any case I MUST keep in mind my 1.070 € monthly home loan, otherwise..... :bang: :bang: :bang:
P.S. I'm glad to see you here too !
I look to your avatar: are you hiding like a temptator devil, aren't you?
Of course actually this gear is less expensive than once, but it makes in any case its "porca figura" as we say in Italy (no idea how to render this concept in English, sorry), isn't it?About me, I'm trying to "rationalize" what I already have, not to add other.. it's not an endless lust I want, you know...
I'm waiting next PMA, since I think we'll see a lot of news from Nikon, Zeiss and maybe Leica too. Only then I'll decide what to do, but in any case I MUST keep in mind my 1.070 € monthly home loan, otherwise..... :bang: :bang: :bang:
P.S. I'm glad to see you here too !
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vieri
Leica Ambassador
I hear you - house comes first of course
About waiting for the Kina, I decided that this was a good time to get R gear - if we'll see a new R at the Kina (the long rumored digital R10, or something like the DMR, or whatever), R lenses will start go up in price on the used market, especially these ROM lenses: so I got some now, which I needed to side my M gear for a film-only and no-battery project I am going to do soon (the R6.2 is all mechanical save for the meter), and probably saved some euros as well
italy74
Well-known
Well,
If I'd go for some R camera or whatever I have for sure some good lenses to resell in exchange, but again I prefer having all the cards on the table before deciding..
p.s. No hope to see you around Parma within the end of August or Salerno in the first three weeks of september?
If I'd go for some R camera or whatever I have for sure some good lenses to resell in exchange, but again I prefer having all the cards on the table before deciding..
p.s. No hope to see you around Parma within the end of August or Salerno in the first three weeks of september?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dino,
There's CERTAINLY news from Leica at photokina, but it's under embargo until September 15th...
Cheers,
R.
There's CERTAINLY news from Leica at photokina, but it's under embargo until September 15th...
Cheers,
R.
italy74
Well-known
Hi Roger,
I'm looking a bit longer, so I mentioned PMA. Nikon is going to its 50th next year from the first F so I'm expecting something revolutionary on that side.. who knows..
I'm looking a bit longer, so I mentioned PMA. Nikon is going to its 50th next year from the first F so I'm expecting something revolutionary on that side.. who knows..
b.espahbod
Optophile
If u shoot B&W dont bother go get some old leica lenses (Summaron 28 for wide, SuperAngulon 21 for super wide, Summaron 35/2.8 for a bit wide, Elmar 50/2.8 collap and a good old 90/2.8 all at a price of a one 35/1.4 with an M7. by the way older lenses are better for b&w IF b&w is the case, else there is always a bottle of Tetenal BleachFix to drink for the best solution in case of empty pocket and expensive Leitz!!!
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mw_uio
Well-known
italy 74,
You already have the best SLR in the world! [F6]
Maybe add some ZF glass to your F6!
The R9 viewfinder in my mind below par compared to the F6.
R9 stats:
"Viewfinder field 23 x 25 mm, corresponds to
93 % of the image area (96 % vertical x 97 % horizontal), in conformance with the standardized 35 mm slide format"
Just load up on film and forget the Leica SLR.
Mark
UIO
You already have the best SLR in the world! [F6]
Maybe add some ZF glass to your F6!
The R9 viewfinder in my mind below par compared to the F6.
R9 stats:
"Viewfinder field 23 x 25 mm, corresponds to
93 % of the image area (96 % vertical x 97 % horizontal), in conformance with the standardized 35 mm slide format"
Just load up on film and forget the Leica SLR.
Mark
UIO
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I've said several times that VERY FEW professionals use Leicas and I stand by it. The celebrities that will inevitably be trotted out to disprove me are a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of thousands of pros using Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, and Mamiya cameras. Not to mention the smaller numbers using Olympus, Pentax, Minolta, etc who still greatly outnumber pros using Leica.
I earn every penny I earn with my cameras, and have for the last 8 years.
b.espahbod
Optophile
Chris I agree with you, the systems I my self get payed from are my Hassy and Large format lenses on Linhof and Sinar. leica is more like a big boys' toy but its a very nice toy that takes great pictures (from a quality POV). I think Pro means MF+ (Medium format and Beyond) 135 in any form is baby stuff. I'm a Leica fan but I find R system a bit useless, If I am forced to choose a 135 SLR system I would definitley go for F6 because its a Top-Of-The-Line Camera and great Zeiss Lenses available at reasonable prices.
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Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Virtually all of my income comes from my medium format cameras, with a little from my digital SLRs. I disagree with you on 35mm being baby stuff though, because there were a lot of professionals who used 35mm back before the digital tide rolled in. Photojournalism was almost 100% 35mm, and those newspaper photographers were definately pros. As for Leicas, they were once the professional's choice. They have been toys for the rich for a long time because of a refusal to innovate and pricing that businessmen simply cannot justify. We don't often think of professional photographers as businessmen, but most of us are. Most of us own and run our own small businesses, and we simply cannot pay twice as much for cameras and 4 times as much for lenses compared to pro level 35mm equipment made by Canon and Nikon. I myself am a bit unusual: I have always shot Olympus OM-system cameras for my 35mm work. Leica refuses to understand that, and the Leica zealots who keep encouraging this while spitting on anyone who dares tell how it REALLY is in the world of professional photography are only making the day that Leica dies that much closer.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Chris,
I don't think anyone would argue with you. But there are some who go a lot further than your indisputable statement.
Cheers,
R.
italy74
Well-known
Hi guys
thank you all for your comments.
First of all I DON'T want to diminish my F6: heck, this is THE Nikon for film, no doubt about that (I'm not questioning about past F5,F4,F3..., let's say that actually it's the top of the line), but still it was my first time I saw a Leica which wasn't a P/S..
More than the camera, enough rugged, were lenses to impress me, where we still see too many cheap plastic ones around due to cost reasons. I had the 85 F/1.4 once which is a darn chunk of glass, but still gave me another kind of confidence. It was just different even if not necessarily worse.
Second, I wouldn't go into questioning what's PRO or not PRO.. of course MF and LF photography have different customers and tools. When I got married in southern Italy 9 years ago, our photographer had SEVERAL MF cameras (Hassy and Mamiya, mostly) and some top of the line 35mm camera. Actually, I'd like to know if he's still working with the newest H3DII with 39 MP or if he's just handling the latest Canon 1DS or the Nikon D3 because they are far cheaper.
Here I was just noticing how different (again, not worse or better, just different and unusual) was the philosophy to shoot. Being in Parma, I guess with such equipment he will have asked about 5000€ for such ceremony. Let me tell you that Italy is divided into three main zones:
northern Italy, where photographers are known and work around FASHION
central Italy, where the main topic are MOVIES (think of Cinecittà, Rome)
southern Italy, where the best wedding photographers come up.
Down you have a much stronger sense of family and ceremony related stuff that in northern Italy is going to disappear, due to different social and job possibilities. People CARE a lot about their wedding album and movie, so there's a real strive among photographers to offer the best they can to the couple.
Actually, I find it a bit kitsch, but the photographer that I chose had also the possibility to escort you to the church / restaurant with a FERRARI (!) At that time, I went for a ceremony BMW (I liked more than the Mercedes he also had, but this is my taste) to escort my future wife and her father. Or they organize fireworks and special setups in castles, etc. Another thing they do and it's not used here (very stupid by local photographers, imho) is the "anteprima", where they offer to the couple a full day away - BEFORE the ceremony, where of course there will be not that much time to shoot relaxed - to get some romantic and very well studied and effective shots in a gorgeous place (an old marine burg, a castle, etc.) You have to remember that in Italy there are only FEW big cities (Roma, Milano, Napoli, etc.) and consequently people have no all those facilities you could have in America (NY, LA, Houston, etc.) where everything is pushed to its most. They are little realities producing a lot of beautiful things for their size, and people recognize that.
Well, now let me stop this OT, I know there some of you earn also 50,000$ for each wedding that for me is a completely out of market amount of money. Just Flavio Briatore or some football player or starlet or politic can pay that much for a wedding.. but you're way far from common people.
Bottom line, I'd get more a Leica for street shots that for wedding ones, nonetheless I was surprised to see such combo at work.
thank you all for your comments.
First of all I DON'T want to diminish my F6: heck, this is THE Nikon for film, no doubt about that (I'm not questioning about past F5,F4,F3..., let's say that actually it's the top of the line), but still it was my first time I saw a Leica which wasn't a P/S..
More than the camera, enough rugged, were lenses to impress me, where we still see too many cheap plastic ones around due to cost reasons. I had the 85 F/1.4 once which is a darn chunk of glass, but still gave me another kind of confidence. It was just different even if not necessarily worse.
Second, I wouldn't go into questioning what's PRO or not PRO.. of course MF and LF photography have different customers and tools. When I got married in southern Italy 9 years ago, our photographer had SEVERAL MF cameras (Hassy and Mamiya, mostly) and some top of the line 35mm camera. Actually, I'd like to know if he's still working with the newest H3DII with 39 MP or if he's just handling the latest Canon 1DS or the Nikon D3 because they are far cheaper.
Here I was just noticing how different (again, not worse or better, just different and unusual) was the philosophy to shoot. Being in Parma, I guess with such equipment he will have asked about 5000€ for such ceremony. Let me tell you that Italy is divided into three main zones:
northern Italy, where photographers are known and work around FASHION
central Italy, where the main topic are MOVIES (think of Cinecittà, Rome)
southern Italy, where the best wedding photographers come up.
Down you have a much stronger sense of family and ceremony related stuff that in northern Italy is going to disappear, due to different social and job possibilities. People CARE a lot about their wedding album and movie, so there's a real strive among photographers to offer the best they can to the couple.
Actually, I find it a bit kitsch, but the photographer that I chose had also the possibility to escort you to the church / restaurant with a FERRARI (!) At that time, I went for a ceremony BMW (I liked more than the Mercedes he also had, but this is my taste) to escort my future wife and her father. Or they organize fireworks and special setups in castles, etc. Another thing they do and it's not used here (very stupid by local photographers, imho) is the "anteprima", where they offer to the couple a full day away - BEFORE the ceremony, where of course there will be not that much time to shoot relaxed - to get some romantic and very well studied and effective shots in a gorgeous place (an old marine burg, a castle, etc.) You have to remember that in Italy there are only FEW big cities (Roma, Milano, Napoli, etc.) and consequently people have no all those facilities you could have in America (NY, LA, Houston, etc.) where everything is pushed to its most. They are little realities producing a lot of beautiful things for their size, and people recognize that.
Well, now let me stop this OT, I know there some of you earn also 50,000$ for each wedding that for me is a completely out of market amount of money. Just Flavio Briatore or some football player or starlet or politic can pay that much for a wedding.. but you're way far from common people.
Bottom line, I'd get more a Leica for street shots that for wedding ones, nonetheless I was surprised to see such combo at work.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Dino,
A brilliant analysis/image, and a superb illustration of why I am such an enthusiastic European.
Some cultural homogenization is inevitable. And as much variety as possible is desirable. Hence the need for a well-made mechanical, old-fashioned rangefinder camera alongside camera-phones, Gandolfis, and DSLRs.
Cheers,
R.