Tom A
RFF Sponsor
For some reason the Brits can get away with things like the Bristol, the Morgan, the Lotus 7 in its various disquises and lets not forget the TVR. Maybe we should appoint some British designers to work for Leica?
Roger, there is a nice blue Bristol 406 driving around here in Vancouver. Original owner too! I have always wanted to have the real thing from that Dinky Toy twin finned Le mans car (I think it was a 400 model). I had the model, but as i used it as a target for my 22 cal. pistol in my youth, it kind of disintegrated!
I could agree with the Bristol being the original MP, but the M2 is a cross between the Ford f100 1955 and the TR3 with considerable input from a Series III Land Rover! The M3 would then be the Austin Healey 100 and the M4 the Healey 3000 (Roll Up Windows - whats the world coming too!).
I think the Tr2/3 was one of the great sports drivers, elbow hanging out, torque and noise that made it a joy to drive. My last one was a yellow TR3B with an overdrive that occasionally decided to shift on its own!
The Bug Eye Sprite was fun, I had two of them at the same time (total investment $125 in 1968). Not that fast initially, but with some tinkering it could move. There was a group in Denmark in the late 60's/early 70's who would throw out the A engine and put the Mazda RX3 engine (triple rotor Wankel) in them and race them. Scary fast!! Somewhat akin to double up the batteries in the M4P winder and get 5-6 frames/sec (and severly shorted shutter life - but Leica had a nice 3 year warranty and no questions asked).
Roger, there is a nice blue Bristol 406 driving around here in Vancouver. Original owner too! I have always wanted to have the real thing from that Dinky Toy twin finned Le mans car (I think it was a 400 model). I had the model, but as i used it as a target for my 22 cal. pistol in my youth, it kind of disintegrated!
I could agree with the Bristol being the original MP, but the M2 is a cross between the Ford f100 1955 and the TR3 with considerable input from a Series III Land Rover! The M3 would then be the Austin Healey 100 and the M4 the Healey 3000 (Roll Up Windows - whats the world coming too!).
I think the Tr2/3 was one of the great sports drivers, elbow hanging out, torque and noise that made it a joy to drive. My last one was a yellow TR3B with an overdrive that occasionally decided to shift on its own!
The Bug Eye Sprite was fun, I had two of them at the same time (total investment $125 in 1968). Not that fast initially, but with some tinkering it could move. There was a group in Denmark in the late 60's/early 70's who would throw out the A engine and put the Mazda RX3 engine (triple rotor Wankel) in them and race them. Scary fast!! Somewhat akin to double up the batteries in the M4P winder and get 5-6 frames/sec (and severly shorted shutter life - but Leica had a nice 3 year warranty and no questions asked).
photovdz
Well-known
left hand drive TR2 and 3 for exprot market where once produced here (Belgium), they are reputedly more reliable and less rust prone than the english ones... same for the Seneffe build minis (not that they didn't rust, but they rusted slower...)... so may be you a belgian designer could work on the leica too... to keep an eye on the british one (so he doesn't change the leica into a periflex...)
Papa Smurf
Established
Congratulations Roger
Congratulations Roger
You have pulled off a masterful coup. Those in the know are dumbfounded. Those in the dark are convinced that they are in the know. And those that don't care are busy scratching themselves wondering what this has been all about. Because of that, I stand by my question, have you ever thought about going into American Politics? If you speak straight and tell the truth the media will assassinate you or, worse, totally ignore you. Look at Ron Paul's campaign. Let Leica's heritage be what it is. It has stayed true to its principles longer than all of its competitors. The consumer is a fickle mistress and trying to please her has brought down Minolta. Topcon, well the list is too long for this forum. Let us rejoice in the fact that we will have Leica (and Contax) cameras or their copies to enjoy for a long time to come.
However, the comment about those with 120ish I.Q's don't know that there are people smarter than themselves is incorrect. We are aware of those more intelligent than us; we are just not capable of getting those people to acknowledge that we sometimes have something worthwhile to say and deserve to be at least polled from time to time to see if we have something to say that might be beneficial to the overall good of the Enterprise.
As for as who is going to sell Leica to whom is pure conjecture. Look at the CAD industry if you want to see some new and strange bedfellows. Me, I plan to keep shooting film in my "vintage" camera until it, I or film isn't available anymore. Besides, I love this website. It brings together so many similar, but differing points of view!
Congratulations Roger
You have pulled off a masterful coup. Those in the know are dumbfounded. Those in the dark are convinced that they are in the know. And those that don't care are busy scratching themselves wondering what this has been all about. Because of that, I stand by my question, have you ever thought about going into American Politics? If you speak straight and tell the truth the media will assassinate you or, worse, totally ignore you. Look at Ron Paul's campaign. Let Leica's heritage be what it is. It has stayed true to its principles longer than all of its competitors. The consumer is a fickle mistress and trying to please her has brought down Minolta. Topcon, well the list is too long for this forum. Let us rejoice in the fact that we will have Leica (and Contax) cameras or their copies to enjoy for a long time to come.
However, the comment about those with 120ish I.Q's don't know that there are people smarter than themselves is incorrect. We are aware of those more intelligent than us; we are just not capable of getting those people to acknowledge that we sometimes have something worthwhile to say and deserve to be at least polled from time to time to see if we have something to say that might be beneficial to the overall good of the Enterprise.
As for as who is going to sell Leica to whom is pure conjecture. Look at the CAD industry if you want to see some new and strange bedfellows. Me, I plan to keep shooting film in my "vintage" camera until it, I or film isn't available anymore. Besides, I love this website. It brings together so many similar, but differing points of view!
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Wow. If that could possibly make it up my driveway I'd start saving. More my style than the Morgan!!
willie_901
Veteran
Both Leica and Landrover are on their deathbeds. it doesn't matter who advises them, what the advice may be or if they take the advice.
Even after these corporations are gone, people will continue to enjoy Landrovers and Leicas for what they are and what they can do.
Even after these corporations are gone, people will continue to enjoy Landrovers and Leicas for what they are and what they can do.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
For the former, sure. Bring on the Edsel!
For the latter, of course it was a wild generalization. Intelligence and wisdom are readily separable, and the wise person, of any intelligence, recognizes that there are people who are cleverer and less clever than themselves.
There are plenty of stupid people who are unable to understand that there is anyone cleverer than they are, and many of the most intelligent people I have ever met are astonishingly modest (which is when I start suspecting they're cleverer than I am). But as I say, at around 120 it is alleged to be easiest to deceive yourself into thinking that you're REALLY clever.
When it comes to voting (and indeed, to most of life), wisdom is often a lot more useful than intelligence. Intelligence tends to come into its own only when earning a living, and not always then.
And it doesn't take much wisdom to decide NOT to go into politics!
Cheers,
R.
SR1
Established
Roger,
Fortunately (or unfortunately) depending on your view point, you clearly believe that if you buy quality it will last. Great for you. bad for Leica, Landrover etc.
I share the sentiment, however it does not bode well in a society which promotes consumerism.
Why buy one camera at £3000 when you can buy 1 a year at £300 and have the "excitement" of getting a new camera each year.
If you're selling old technology, you need to offer excellent service (I have been very pleased with Leicas customer service over the past coulple of months and for me that is a big plus) or have a good marketing department.
You mentioned you have a 40 year old Omega. I bought a Rolex in the mid 90's which is hopelessly inaccurate compared to a £5 quartz watch. Rolex seemed unconcerned when I complained it lost about 10 seconds a day, stating it was within tolerance.
Yet Rolex have some of the longest waiting lists of any watch manufacturer.
They market their products as status symbols and I suspect that Leica will have to do the same if they want to increase their market share.
Regards
SR
Fortunately (or unfortunately) depending on your view point, you clearly believe that if you buy quality it will last. Great for you. bad for Leica, Landrover etc.
I share the sentiment, however it does not bode well in a society which promotes consumerism.
Why buy one camera at £3000 when you can buy 1 a year at £300 and have the "excitement" of getting a new camera each year.
If you're selling old technology, you need to offer excellent service (I have been very pleased with Leicas customer service over the past coulple of months and for me that is a big plus) or have a good marketing department.
You mentioned you have a 40 year old Omega. I bought a Rolex in the mid 90's which is hopelessly inaccurate compared to a £5 quartz watch. Rolex seemed unconcerned when I complained it lost about 10 seconds a day, stating it was within tolerance.
Yet Rolex have some of the longest waiting lists of any watch manufacturer.
They market their products as status symbols and I suspect that Leica will have to do the same if they want to increase their market share.
Regards
SR
johne
Well-known
Roger,
The flaw is obvious. You assume there IS a flaw!
johne
The flaw is obvious. You assume there IS a flaw!
johne
tomasis
Well-known
interesting thread. I like cars too. I would prefer Nissan Figaro against Nissan micra. Old VW beetles, minivans are very cute too.
But if I want a car which offers much value for perfomance, I'd be interested for Lotus 7 or any replica like Caterham You run faster with 150bhp than anything like new Bmw M5 Also you get a lot of adrenalin when the chassis is quite rigid
I buy used products of Leica and even if they are very expensive, I think those offer much value and bring the very important point that you get many years to handle the very same tool and improve the skills drastically, also get peace in the mind without falling back to all type of consumerism and you kinda of get lost of "things which can make your life better" which is not always true. Well we have some choices.
But if I want a car which offers much value for perfomance, I'd be interested for Lotus 7 or any replica like Caterham
You run faster with 150bhp than anything like new Bmw M5 Also you get a lot of adrenalin when the chassis is quite rigid I buy used products of Leica and even if they are very expensive, I think those offer much value and bring the very important point that you get many years to handle the very same tool and improve the skills drastically, also get peace in the mind without falling back to all type of consumerism and you kinda of get lost of "things which can make your life better" which is not always true. Well we have some choices.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear SR,
You have, of course, guaranteed howls of agony and rage from those who do not think as clearly as you do.
And a further consequence of your analysis is that Leica, whose customers expect their cameras to last decades, can never be as big as a company that sells to people who expect to change their cameras once a year. It is a very unsophisticated analysis (not unknown in RFF) which says that smaller = inferior, or that all companies must 'grow or die'.
The other thing about the watch is that I prefer simplicity, reliability and durability to accuracy. My old Omega is in dire need of a clean, but it's accurate enough for a wrist-watch. I'm not navigating by it, and of course there was a good reason why, in old war movies, they used to synchronize their watches at the beginning of a carefully-timed operation: almost ANY decent wrist-watch is adequate for a day or two, where rendez-vous are subject to +/- 5 minute delays and explosions to +/- 30 seconds.
Cheers,
R.
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sepiareverb
genius and moron
I've never understood this idea- that continued growth is the only way to measure success. My garden remains the same size each year, and easily produces the food we wish it to. If it was bigger I'd have to tend it more, and then figure out what to do with the extra food. Bigger is certainly not always better, yet as whole economies are built upon this premise we are somewhat stuck with that as the 'norm'. Look what that whole idea has done to the American waistline.
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SR1
Established
Roger,
"The other thing about the watch is that I prefer simplicity, reliability and durability to accuracy"
12 years on I agree. My complaint to Rolex was based on my applying the standards of one product to another (quartz vs mechanical) in reality 10 seconds a day is pretty good for a mechanical watch.
I bought an M6 becuase I wanted someting reliable which could be used even if the battery fails. It is reasuruing to have a backup camera that I know will work if all else fails (like me forgetting to take a spare battery for my digital cameras which I've done on more than one occasion).
Forgive me if the following quote is attributable to someone else, however the discussion on IBM reminded me. In my ignorance I will attribute it to a former colleague of mine who quoted it all the time when seeing new computers arrive at the office.
"Henry Ford didn't invent the affordable motor car. He invented planned obsolesence"
Regards
SR
"The other thing about the watch is that I prefer simplicity, reliability and durability to accuracy"
12 years on I agree. My complaint to Rolex was based on my applying the standards of one product to another (quartz vs mechanical) in reality 10 seconds a day is pretty good for a mechanical watch.
I bought an M6 becuase I wanted someting reliable which could be used even if the battery fails. It is reasuruing to have a backup camera that I know will work if all else fails (like me forgetting to take a spare battery for my digital cameras which I've done on more than one occasion).
Forgive me if the following quote is attributable to someone else, however the discussion on IBM reminded me. In my ignorance I will attribute it to a former colleague of mine who quoted it all the time when seeing new computers arrive at the office.
"Henry Ford didn't invent the affordable motor car. He invented planned obsolesence"
Regards
SR
Drambuie
Member
Corollary - I am new to photography and have just bought the latest Nikonon DX-9009Pro. Therefore I am perfectly qualified to pass judgement on everything photographic that existed beforehand: and am fully justified in claiming that it is all obsolete junk ..... I will shortly start my new job in a camera shop and thus be able to help many new customers to achieve such enlightenment. ;-)
"An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less, until they know everything about nothing" [Jack Daniels]
Alan
PS I just bought my 5th Barnack (IIIb) - friends & colleagues now know that I'm a nutcase! My Landrover is living proof that Solihull was (and ever will be) stuck in a timewarp.
amateriat
We're all light!
There's bulletproof, and there's bulletproof...
Day before yesterday, I'd ridden my Alex Moulton 14-speed into Manhattan from Brooklyn, and passed a yellow Defender 90 (what's the official name LR uses for that color?), and I thought: just what defines "bulletproof" these days?
My Moulton has skinny 17" tires, compensated for by front and rear suspension...unheard-of in bicycles when I bought it a tad over 22 years ago, and already passé now, but the bike has seen nasty bits of road road, the cobblestones of lower Manhattan and Brooklyn, and other indignities, but remained intact, and kept me in relative comfort all this time. Yes, it was crazy-expensive, and even moreso now, but worth every dollar. Of course, since it doesn't require filling-up at the pump (yeah, I, being the engine, have to eat, but that's mostly a given, yes?), but the bike hasn't given me a peep of trouble in all this time, save for the usual tube/tire replacement. All the other bits have been straight-up solid. A LR likely comes somewhat close as a motorized analog (Keith's experienced anecdotes aside), but still coming up a bit short by comparison.
Not exactly gloating here (okay, just a bit), but wondering all the same. And, we all have flaws.
- Barrett
Day before yesterday, I'd ridden my Alex Moulton 14-speed into Manhattan from Brooklyn, and passed a yellow Defender 90 (what's the official name LR uses for that color?), and I thought: just what defines "bulletproof" these days?
My Moulton has skinny 17" tires, compensated for by front and rear suspension...unheard-of in bicycles when I bought it a tad over 22 years ago, and already passé now, but the bike has seen nasty bits of road road, the cobblestones of lower Manhattan and Brooklyn, and other indignities, but remained intact, and kept me in relative comfort all this time. Yes, it was crazy-expensive, and even moreso now, but worth every dollar. Of course, since it doesn't require filling-up at the pump (yeah, I, being the engine, have to eat, but that's mostly a given, yes?), but the bike hasn't given me a peep of trouble in all this time, save for the usual tube/tire replacement. All the other bits have been straight-up solid. A LR likely comes somewhat close as a motorized analog (Keith's experienced anecdotes aside), but still coming up a bit short by comparison.
Not exactly gloating here (okay, just a bit), but wondering all the same. And, we all have flaws.
- Barrett
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Ken Smith
Why yes Ma'am - it folds
Land Rover
Land Rover
Obviously mr. Hicks is more qualified to offer the folks at Land Rover advice than their current design team. The latest models seemed to be visually designed to appeal to east coast/west coast over paid rap star-gang member-thug about town. The Land Rover lost appeal to me when they did away with the Discovery and Defender. As for the hybrid appeal - my carbon footprint is signed "Vibram" aka waffle stomper.
Ken
Canon 7/Yashica GSN/Yashica 5000
Land Rover
Obviously mr. Hicks is more qualified to offer the folks at Land Rover advice than their current design team. The latest models seemed to be visually designed to appeal to east coast/west coast over paid rap star-gang member-thug about town. The Land Rover lost appeal to me when they did away with the Discovery and Defender. As for the hybrid appeal - my carbon footprint is signed "Vibram" aka waffle stomper.
Ken
Canon 7/Yashica GSN/Yashica 5000