italy74
Well-known
As usual, always nice to read...
http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/leica/page115/page115.html
http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/leica/page115/page115.html
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
Yes, of course Leica must reinvent itself.
Just as Volkswagen did when moving from the (original) Beetle to the Golf.
Just as Volkswagen did when moving from the (original) Beetle to the Golf.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Should Leica Camera AG toss the out the baby with the bath water?
This won't be easy. I remember when VW abandoned rear engine, rear wheel drive for front wheel drive. While it FWD may have been a better match for the times, the brand did lose a certain "je ne sais quoi".
So what niche is there for Leica to exploit? Leica isn't very large. With the exception of the Pana-Leicas, their cameras and lenses are pretty much hand built in the Eurozone. The concept of craft versus the latest in gizmodology may be at stake here.
This won't be easy. I remember when VW abandoned rear engine, rear wheel drive for front wheel drive. While it FWD may have been a better match for the times, the brand did lose a certain "je ne sais quoi".
So what niche is there for Leica to exploit? Leica isn't very large. With the exception of the Pana-Leicas, their cameras and lenses are pretty much hand built in the Eurozone. The concept of craft versus the latest in gizmodology may be at stake here.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
The list for Canon during the 1950's is even longer than for Nikon.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
So Leica has its SLR, RF, and now the M8 digital. Might it not concentarte on its core product? We know for its survival Leica must stay in digital. Like the M3, MP production could go on for the next decade.
Since no one else produces a digital RF, might it consider a strategic allaince with one of the big digital boys?
Since no one else produces a digital RF, might it consider a strategic allaince with one of the big digital boys?
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
Some car companies embrace new materials and technologies while referencing the past successfully: Aston Martin, Jaguar, and Bentley spring to mind.
Some others which once had ground breaking cutting-edge design and technology never seemed to move on: Rover for example which is gone, and before that the old Citroen which is gone in all but name on various rebodied Peugeots.
Leica is in danger of trying to reproduce a once state of the art design for people with fond memories, and in doing so not moving forward and attracting new customers.
Zeiss is half the price of Leica, just as capable, and half the price.
Some others which once had ground breaking cutting-edge design and technology never seemed to move on: Rover for example which is gone, and before that the old Citroen which is gone in all but name on various rebodied Peugeots.
Leica is in danger of trying to reproduce a once state of the art design for people with fond memories, and in doing so not moving forward and attracting new customers.
Zeiss is half the price of Leica, just as capable, and half the price.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
I may even be more capable and at half the price.
kevin m
Veteran
The M3 was a fully-realized film rangefinder; once a meter was added, there was nothing left to improve. The same isn't true of the M8 yet.
Leica's in a pickle right now: If they change the camera too much, the collectors and purists will leave; if they don't change it enough, they won't get their small portion of professional users back. The clock is running, and I wish Mr. Kaufmann luck.
Leica's in a pickle right now: If they change the camera too much, the collectors and purists will leave; if they don't change it enough, they won't get their small portion of professional users back. The clock is running, and I wish Mr. Kaufmann luck.
italy74
Well-known
You were faster than me of 10 minutes... I was almost to do the same..
italy74
Well-known
...
I'm wondering if Leica couldn't consider of another - parallel - line to propose to its customers, old and new ones. My opinion is that despite the worldwide shop which is internet, Leica NOT only remains an elitary and niche object but it remains ONLY for its OLD fans, not concurring to get new ones. So, ok, keep the MP, M7, M9... because one can't deny its root, but on the other side they should launch something completely new that can be easily seen by other people which otherwise would think of only Nikon and Canon. A lot of people look on internet but which is the statistical ratio between "Nikon" hits and "Leica" hits on the search engines like google? 100:1 ?
Have you ever seen a Leica into a department store or photographic shop where other cameras are sold? In my reality, you can get them only in 7 - 8 cities in Italy, and also in very lost and particular shops. People should be aware that another photographic reality exists and it's NOT branded Nikon/Canon/Sony/Olympus.. of course it DOES will have a higher price but at least people will know about Leica. Ask the foreign mason living near you if he knows such name.. While I'm pretty sure if you name "Nikon" he will tell you "quality photographic stuff" and so with Canon.
Leica, if they want, can STILL remain an elitary object but it MUST be at least known by other people, in order to survive... In a fully digital world (notice I love my F6 much more than my D200, mine is just considering a fact) you can't base half of your production on two film cameras (M7 and MP unknown by a lot of people) and the other half on a digital one which is said to have also flaws.
I think Leica has honestly to review everything before things get worse.
Probably they think to "survive" with earnings coming from other fields / areas (precision instruments, binoculars, etc.)
What do you think?
I'm wondering if Leica couldn't consider of another - parallel - line to propose to its customers, old and new ones. My opinion is that despite the worldwide shop which is internet, Leica NOT only remains an elitary and niche object but it remains ONLY for its OLD fans, not concurring to get new ones. So, ok, keep the MP, M7, M9... because one can't deny its root, but on the other side they should launch something completely new that can be easily seen by other people which otherwise would think of only Nikon and Canon. A lot of people look on internet but which is the statistical ratio between "Nikon" hits and "Leica" hits on the search engines like google? 100:1 ?
Have you ever seen a Leica into a department store or photographic shop where other cameras are sold? In my reality, you can get them only in 7 - 8 cities in Italy, and also in very lost and particular shops. People should be aware that another photographic reality exists and it's NOT branded Nikon/Canon/Sony/Olympus.. of course it DOES will have a higher price but at least people will know about Leica. Ask the foreign mason living near you if he knows such name.. While I'm pretty sure if you name "Nikon" he will tell you "quality photographic stuff" and so with Canon.
Leica, if they want, can STILL remain an elitary object but it MUST be at least known by other people, in order to survive... In a fully digital world (notice I love my F6 much more than my D200, mine is just considering a fact) you can't base half of your production on two film cameras (M7 and MP unknown by a lot of people) and the other half on a digital one which is said to have also flaws.
I think Leica has honestly to review everything before things get worse.
Probably they think to "survive" with earnings coming from other fields / areas (precision instruments, binoculars, etc.)
What do you think?
ferider
Veteran
In its combination of features, the M3 was a revolution, not an evolution.
There are several new technologies Leica could exploit for a new, similar revolution, and if they don't, somebody else will, to build a competitive DRF. > 16 bit FF sensor, allowing for software vignetting correction and digital RF come to mind (*).
I am assuming we will see new, very competitive lenses at Photokina, like the long overdue redesign of the Noctilux, a very fast wide angle (28/1.4?), maybe the long overdue asph 50/2 ? That might give them peace for a while.
To achieve (*) they would need to collaborate with a major fab (Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, IBM/Kodak, etc) and an electronic/software manufacturer. Just the design of such a new beast takes a year or two ... If it's not underway, somebody else will beat them to it.
What people don't understand about Nikon and Canon is that they can build a DRF, just for the fun of it. They don't need to make similar revenue as with their flagship product. They just need to justify the costs, and could do it for marketing purposes and engineering morale. Like the SP ....
Cheers,
Roland.
There are several new technologies Leica could exploit for a new, similar revolution, and if they don't, somebody else will, to build a competitive DRF. > 16 bit FF sensor, allowing for software vignetting correction and digital RF come to mind (*).
I am assuming we will see new, very competitive lenses at Photokina, like the long overdue redesign of the Noctilux, a very fast wide angle (28/1.4?), maybe the long overdue asph 50/2 ? That might give them peace for a while.
To achieve (*) they would need to collaborate with a major fab (Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, IBM/Kodak, etc) and an electronic/software manufacturer. Just the design of such a new beast takes a year or two ... If it's not underway, somebody else will beat them to it.
What people don't understand about Nikon and Canon is that they can build a DRF, just for the fun of it. They don't need to make similar revenue as with their flagship product. They just need to justify the costs, and could do it for marketing purposes and engineering morale. Like the SP ....
Cheers,
Roland.
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vieri
Leica Ambassador
Ciao Dino,
just a couple of notes that partially contradict your post - most part of which I agree with; here it comes:
- I for one, and as me many more I have seen on the various forums on the net, have got into Leica thanks to the M8. Of course I knew about Leica before, but when I was younger I couldn't afford one (always used Nikon, starting with a F Photomic), then digital came by, I got on the digi-train with the D2x (selling my beloved F5) and stopped using film except for the odd MF shot. Then the M8 appeared, I could afford it, it was digital, so I got one for my street/documentary work; then a few lenses, some new some s/h; then the itch of shooting film again, then a s/h M6, then sold it to fund a new MP, and now I am back into film big time. All my M work is done on film (most street/documentary/concert), my (2) M8s are for sale here, a second MP is on the way, and I have a 2.8/24 ASPH 6-bit (for sale here), 2/35, 1.4/50 ASPH 6-bit (for sale here), Nocti, 14./75, 2/90 pre-ASPH, and a CV 15 & a Canon 1.4/50 LTM. The M8 not only brought me into Leica, but made Leica a nice business; sure not millions did as I did, but is also not true that Leica is not getting any new customers with the M8 (and P&S cameras);
- Leica goods are available in many shops, not only specialized shops: all P&S and small cameras are available here in Istanbul in the photo shops in shopping malls, plus of course all the line in "serious" photo shops; in Milan, Italy, a Leica shop (FotoOtticaCavour) is in the central Piazza Cavour, a shop dealing with s/h Leica stuff (newoldcamera) is in Via Rovello, in the very center of the city, and so on; I am sure you know about it, but from your post it sounded like they are hiding Leica shops in deep & lost suburbia
- Leica Camera (Cameras & Binoculars) is - despite sharing the brand name - separate from Leica Micro instruments & Geo instruments, which are two different companies sharing the same name as well; so, if Leica Cameras wants to survive, they better not count on the money from the othr two companies
which is one of the reasons why they cannot - as Canon and probably Nikon do - move funds from other divisions to fund R&D on the camera division, and so on;Just a couple of little things - the point of your message stays.
Hope you are well! Non saro' in Italia nelle date di cui mi parlavi, ma ti faccio sapere quando passo! Ciao,
Vieri
Chris101
summicronia
Just a side note: I have an inoperable 2000 VW Beetle and an inoperable 1966 Bug. The '66 is worth five times as much as the 2000.
Go fig.
Go fig.
HSI
The Fourth
A Nikon D3 sensor in an MP body and we will all be saved.
italy74
Well-known
Ciao Vieri
thanks for your post.
What I meant was that if you go in whatever town where there's a photographer / photographic shop you can easily find Canon and Nikon. Leica is in Milan and of course this is also a central place.. but who's really served there aside who already knows it? To be known, brands like Leica and Zeiss should have a stand in each big commercial center in northern Italy, at least during holidays or special events.
I mean, if you are a Leica fan you MUST know where shops are, if you are a Nikon/Canon fan it's not necessary, everyone sells such cameras, plus, if I "satisfy" immediately my needing with Nikon/Canon I probably won't look around that much, nay I'll try to continue remaining on Nik/Can with always more powerful and newer models. All the ones in the middle are lost. People REALLY interested in photography and in which a Leica can offer are - statistically - a minority, for several reasons.
About M8, even if it's for sure a Leica bestseller and probably more affordable than other models, but I think you agree with me that a company CAN'T base all its business on a single product. By the time you have to widen your "product portfolio", it's the market law.
Remember that while probably a good part of Americans is concentrated on big cities where such brands can have some kind of visibility, in Italy only 20% of people lives in big cities, all the others live in areas where the towns are 10-20,000 inhabitants averagely and if you don't have any commercial center in your area you're completely cut off from everything is modern or just a bit different from standard.
thanks for your post.
What I meant was that if you go in whatever town where there's a photographer / photographic shop you can easily find Canon and Nikon. Leica is in Milan and of course this is also a central place.. but who's really served there aside who already knows it? To be known, brands like Leica and Zeiss should have a stand in each big commercial center in northern Italy, at least during holidays or special events.
I mean, if you are a Leica fan you MUST know where shops are, if you are a Nikon/Canon fan it's not necessary, everyone sells such cameras, plus, if I "satisfy" immediately my needing with Nikon/Canon I probably won't look around that much, nay I'll try to continue remaining on Nik/Can with always more powerful and newer models. All the ones in the middle are lost. People REALLY interested in photography and in which a Leica can offer are - statistically - a minority, for several reasons.
About M8, even if it's for sure a Leica bestseller and probably more affordable than other models, but I think you agree with me that a company CAN'T base all its business on a single product. By the time you have to widen your "product portfolio", it's the market law.
Remember that while probably a good part of Americans is concentrated on big cities where such brands can have some kind of visibility, in Italy only 20% of people lives in big cities, all the others live in areas where the towns are 10-20,000 inhabitants averagely and if you don't have any commercial center in your area you're completely cut off from everything is modern or just a bit different from standard.
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HSI
The Fourth
But what options do they have in "widening" their product line?
As we have seen with the new Summarit line, Leica is having a hard time cutting cost while maintaining the quality synonymous with the Leica brand name.
They could take the leap into the Japanese market, but would lose die hard Leica buffs on the loss of "German" quality (as it had been tried before with the partnership of Minolta and Leica). Though it could be argued that pairing up with one the big two would significantly improve their chances of maintaining that mystique of quality.
JPSuisse
Well-known
I found Put's recent article "The burden of history (July 22, 2008)" really good. He framed quite well 4 principle reasons that engineering -oriented companies hesitate to change products. He pointed out clearly that a FF sensor in and of itself will not save the M8. Although I would like to have such a sensor in my M8, it was the concept of the camera that made me interested enough in the M8 to buy it, not the sensor size.
On the other hand, I also liked his article "The case for craftsmanship and simplicity (May 4, 2008)" in which he makes a case for a dMP. This is probably more the tool I'm looking for, although the M8 isn't bad at all. But would this be a radical departure? It seems to me that the two articles are rather contradictory.
Thinking over these 2 articles lead me to believe that something more radical will have to be in store for us when the M9 arrives. It can't just be an emotional call to the days of yore when Leica was one of the leading camera makers in terms of volume. I just want to know if the lenses will fit on both my MP and the M9, when and if I buy it...
On the other hand, I also liked his article "The case for craftsmanship and simplicity (May 4, 2008)" in which he makes a case for a dMP. This is probably more the tool I'm looking for, although the M8 isn't bad at all. But would this be a radical departure? It seems to me that the two articles are rather contradictory.
Thinking over these 2 articles lead me to believe that something more radical will have to be in store for us when the M9 arrives. It can't just be an emotional call to the days of yore when Leica was one of the leading camera makers in terms of volume. I just want to know if the lenses will fit on both my MP and the M9, when and if I buy it...
BOSS65
Member
If Leica wants to compete in the digital arena, the starting point is a Leica vision of what the best digital camera should be, execute the production to the highest quality level, and then be prepared for an encore every 18 months. If the product is great, Leica collectors and ordinary consumers will desire it.
HSI
The Fourth
What more could you ask from them?
Autofocus, matrix metering, a pop-up flash?
Leica's are simple machines, and from the start people liked the simpler things in the brand (the M2, the M6 Classic, the MP). They tried to branch out before (the CL, CLE, M5, and the entire SLR line) and didn't do so well, but when they went back to the basices, they flourished.
I don't see why people would not want a simplified, ergonomified, full frame M8?
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italy74
Well-known
Ciao Hsi,
The problem about the summarit lines is exactly because it's centered on a single product (M7 / M8): if the first doesn't sell that much (in absolute terms, that is compared to other camera producers) because it's an elitary one, all that is related (even if cheaper) is at risk. Such move should have been done time ago when there could be a higher demand for such kind of cameras.
Coming back to these days, Leica - maybe exploiting its partnership with Panasonic or exploring another one with Cosina (if not a competitor) - should have to realize a credible SLR / DSLR and start to show it where Panasonic sells its products. More or less is what's trying to do Alfa Romeo with one of its famous competitors, BMW, to enter the USA market soon. Alfa Romeo refined a lot its cars during the time and now can be rightfully considered in the premium zone, despite it still lacks about "premium history" that could have other brands. You won't believe to Alfa Romeo until you enter the latest cars, 159, 8C, the next 169 or whatever is called. OF COURSE it won't NEVER be like a Maserati or a Ferrari but at least you know it exists and it's an indeed good quality car. So should do Leica. Focus on a one or two cameras at most that can be seen easier on the market. I remember one of the ad Nikon created for its BOTTOM line film camera, the F55: invito all'eccellenza (invitation to excellence). When you got a F55, you're conscious that such camera is the littlest but it's the first step to move in a bigger and "better" world that is Nikon (in this case). I know this is of course a brave step for Leica, but this MUST be done, since the more time flows without doing nothing, the higher is the probability for Leica to sink. FF RF? Ok. It's a first step, but don't stop here.
Again, I'm not wishing any bad to Leica, nay I'm hoping from the deep that a such famous brand can survive to the time. Look at Nikon. They did a lot of consumer cameras recently, to sell in great quantities, and with the earnings they could then work at D3 / D700 and whatever comes out in the next few months (3 DSLR seem still to be on their way before the end of the year. THREE, plus lenses). Leica must find a right half way between the supercompact camera and the expensive one. Otherwise, like our car brand Lancia, will pass through a LOT of problems since the middle / middle high area is uncovered.
The problem about the summarit lines is exactly because it's centered on a single product (M7 / M8): if the first doesn't sell that much (in absolute terms, that is compared to other camera producers) because it's an elitary one, all that is related (even if cheaper) is at risk. Such move should have been done time ago when there could be a higher demand for such kind of cameras.
Coming back to these days, Leica - maybe exploiting its partnership with Panasonic or exploring another one with Cosina (if not a competitor) - should have to realize a credible SLR / DSLR and start to show it where Panasonic sells its products. More or less is what's trying to do Alfa Romeo with one of its famous competitors, BMW, to enter the USA market soon. Alfa Romeo refined a lot its cars during the time and now can be rightfully considered in the premium zone, despite it still lacks about "premium history" that could have other brands. You won't believe to Alfa Romeo until you enter the latest cars, 159, 8C, the next 169 or whatever is called. OF COURSE it won't NEVER be like a Maserati or a Ferrari but at least you know it exists and it's an indeed good quality car. So should do Leica. Focus on a one or two cameras at most that can be seen easier on the market. I remember one of the ad Nikon created for its BOTTOM line film camera, the F55: invito all'eccellenza (invitation to excellence). When you got a F55, you're conscious that such camera is the littlest but it's the first step to move in a bigger and "better" world that is Nikon (in this case). I know this is of course a brave step for Leica, but this MUST be done, since the more time flows without doing nothing, the higher is the probability for Leica to sink. FF RF? Ok. It's a first step, but don't stop here.
Again, I'm not wishing any bad to Leica, nay I'm hoping from the deep that a such famous brand can survive to the time. Look at Nikon. They did a lot of consumer cameras recently, to sell in great quantities, and with the earnings they could then work at D3 / D700 and whatever comes out in the next few months (3 DSLR seem still to be on their way before the end of the year. THREE, plus lenses). Leica must find a right half way between the supercompact camera and the expensive one. Otherwise, like our car brand Lancia, will pass through a LOT of problems since the middle / middle high area is uncovered.
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