Argenticien
Dave
Greetings all,
If the gods of the post are willing, I shall soon receive a new (to me) Bessa RF or Bessa E, i.e. the pre-war (?) type of rangefinder Bessa which Abbazz posted a whopping big picture of in this thread. (Although to keep the price down, I got one with a Helomar triplet. His looks like a Heliar.)
I've scoured the web for an instruction book for this thing, and have not found one, either on Sylvain Halgands's incredible site (linked above) or on the other usual suspect, Mike Butkus's fabulous site. There are manuals for the Bessa I (non-RF), the Bessa II (post-war RF), and even for various older Bessas with no RF and just the pop-up VF. But none for this exact camera. Has anyone out there seen such documentation? In any language is fine! I know most folders are fairly self-explanatory, but I do always like to read up on the manual of anything I buy, in case there are subtleties.
Thanks in advance.
—Dave
If the gods of the post are willing, I shall soon receive a new (to me) Bessa RF or Bessa E, i.e. the pre-war (?) type of rangefinder Bessa which Abbazz posted a whopping big picture of in this thread. (Although to keep the price down, I got one with a Helomar triplet. His looks like a Heliar.)
I've scoured the web for an instruction book for this thing, and have not found one, either on Sylvain Halgands's incredible site (linked above) or on the other usual suspect, Mike Butkus's fabulous site. There are manuals for the Bessa I (non-RF), the Bessa II (post-war RF), and even for various older Bessas with no RF and just the pop-up VF. But none for this exact camera. Has anyone out there seen such documentation? In any language is fine! I know most folders are fairly self-explanatory, but I do always like to read up on the manual of anything I buy, in case there are subtleties.
Thanks in advance.
—Dave
chippy
foo was here
Dave i just had a quick look at my instruction booklet for the Bessa E (not that i can read it as its in german) but its pretty straight forward and reads simular to the Bessa II with all the obvious differences.
just an outline until you manage to find some although its not difficult to use without them
1st couple of pages outline the buttons/knobs ect and layout of the camera--everything is obvious once you have it in your hand.
then how to open-again obvious, then a few pages on the shutter operation-same as other compur rapids,
then depth of fieds scale/knob- again self explainatory on the camera,
then a couple of pages on how to operate the button on the top right by twisting to activate the veiwfinder mask for 6x4.5,,
then a couple of pages on the filter with a note to adjust 1.5x or 2x exsposure with the filter on of course
then a few pages on loading the film- again pretty easy to figure out. one main difference to remember (not sure if its written int the text) is to make sure you depress the fim wind key (recently we have taken to calling this a film rewind key on RFF -JK) fully into the body before closing the back door-if you dont you leave yourself open to light leaks and or damage to the back door.
then inserting the mask
page or so on removing the completed roll of film--easy
some pages on basic how to hold the camera and focus to take a picture
lastly a page on using assesory portrait filters (focar filters you add for close up)
just an outline until you manage to find some although its not difficult to use without them
1st couple of pages outline the buttons/knobs ect and layout of the camera--everything is obvious once you have it in your hand.
then how to open-again obvious, then a few pages on the shutter operation-same as other compur rapids,
then depth of fieds scale/knob- again self explainatory on the camera,
then a couple of pages on how to operate the button on the top right by twisting to activate the veiwfinder mask for 6x4.5,,
then a couple of pages on the filter with a note to adjust 1.5x or 2x exsposure with the filter on of course
then a few pages on loading the film- again pretty easy to figure out. one main difference to remember (not sure if its written int the text) is to make sure you depress the fim wind key (recently we have taken to calling this a film rewind key on RFF -JK) fully into the body before closing the back door-if you dont you leave yourself open to light leaks and or damage to the back door.
then inserting the mask
page or so on removing the completed roll of film--easy
some pages on basic how to hold the camera and focus to take a picture
lastly a page on using assesory portrait filters (focar filters you add for close up)
Argenticien
Dave
Thanks Andrew, for taking the time to summarize that. That's what I was rather hoping to hear (a lot of "obvious," "easy," "self-explanatory"). As long as there are no "gotcha" items like some FSU cameras have ("Do not set the shutter speed until the shutter is cocked, lest said shutter explode," etc.) then I'm sure I can muddle through.
Thanks,
Dave
Thanks,
Dave
chippy
foo was here
No problem Dave. let us know what your camera is like when you get it or better still show a picture. fingers crossed that it is all good as it can be difficult to get these with 'everything' good as new and no problems at all.
its always good practise to set the shutter to T before putting it away (takes load off the shutter) and not good practise to close the front door while the shutter is cocked lest it should catch on the body (not to mention its not good for the shutter to keep it under load) and prevent it from opening easily although this isnt usualy a problem on the bessa.
one thing with the bessa E and II that is handy (not in the instructions) is you can focus before opening the front door/standard. if you happen to have pre-set your speed and aperature for an outing then its quite a quick, somewhat stealthy way to shoot frames quickly without being as noticable; just compose and cock the shutter (because people dont think your going to take a picture without a lens pointing at them and are less self concious)
Argenticien
Dave
Arrived!
Arrived!
Right. Camera is here and seems in mostly good shape. I went straight away to a dark closet and shone a torch/flashlight into the bellows; they are light-tight. Lens looks unscratched and fungus-free, but possibly a bit hazy. Aperture works smoothly and blades look mostly clean.
Shutter (Compur-Rapid) fires on all numbered settings with "what sounds right" speed. B and T do not work, unless there's a trick I'm missing; both of them stick open (including T after a 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th... click of the shutter release) such that the shutter can only be closed by moving to 1s (or faster), cocking, and firing. I suspect this is not good for it, so I may not pursue this further as I would rarely use B or T anyway. The self-timer works (tested once, which was risky! probably won't use again).
The RF seems very dark and cloudy (looking at indoor lighting anyway; I opened the parcel late enough that I had no sunlight left to work in). I know others have written that this RF is squinty by nature, but I suspect that mine is also quite dirty/hazy. It's also off just a bit in vertical alignment. I'm disinclined to dissect the camera to clean/align it (yet), as I am not talented at such things, but might change my mind if it proves unusable in practice during a few test rolls. (Dave ["fidget"] in England, if you're out there -- what has been the result, one month on, of your RF cleaning/alignment adventure described in this thread?)
Still all things (chiefly age) considered, it looks in good shape, although only a roll of film will tell. Will try to post pictures (of it, not yet by it) this weekend, but going out and shooting will be higher priority!
Andrew, I saw in this other thread that you are collecting serial numbers. Mine are: inside back door H57xxxx; on lens, 108xxxx; and on shutter, 519xxxx. If I understand correctly that Frank's page here refers to lens SN, then 108xxxx puts me in 1935-1937 range. (?) This example has the spidery pattern inside the back door, no sliders on the red windows, no dial or mechanics for automatic red-window acrobatics when a 6x4.5 mask is in ... and in fact no 6x4.5 mask either! There's only a tiny twisty knob above the VF to swing in or out a tiny mask in there for 6x4.5 composition.
--Dave (How many Daves are we?)
Arrived!
Right. Camera is here and seems in mostly good shape. I went straight away to a dark closet and shone a torch/flashlight into the bellows; they are light-tight. Lens looks unscratched and fungus-free, but possibly a bit hazy. Aperture works smoothly and blades look mostly clean.
Shutter (Compur-Rapid) fires on all numbered settings with "what sounds right" speed. B and T do not work, unless there's a trick I'm missing; both of them stick open (including T after a 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th... click of the shutter release) such that the shutter can only be closed by moving to 1s (or faster), cocking, and firing. I suspect this is not good for it, so I may not pursue this further as I would rarely use B or T anyway. The self-timer works (tested once, which was risky! probably won't use again).
The RF seems very dark and cloudy (looking at indoor lighting anyway; I opened the parcel late enough that I had no sunlight left to work in). I know others have written that this RF is squinty by nature, but I suspect that mine is also quite dirty/hazy. It's also off just a bit in vertical alignment. I'm disinclined to dissect the camera to clean/align it (yet), as I am not talented at such things, but might change my mind if it proves unusable in practice during a few test rolls. (Dave ["fidget"] in England, if you're out there -- what has been the result, one month on, of your RF cleaning/alignment adventure described in this thread?)
Still all things (chiefly age) considered, it looks in good shape, although only a roll of film will tell. Will try to post pictures (of it, not yet by it) this weekend, but going out and shooting will be higher priority!
Andrew, I saw in this other thread that you are collecting serial numbers. Mine are: inside back door H57xxxx; on lens, 108xxxx; and on shutter, 519xxxx. If I understand correctly that Frank's page here refers to lens SN, then 108xxxx puts me in 1935-1937 range. (?) This example has the spidery pattern inside the back door, no sliders on the red windows, no dial or mechanics for automatic red-window acrobatics when a 6x4.5 mask is in ... and in fact no 6x4.5 mask either! There's only a tiny twisty knob above the VF to swing in or out a tiny mask in there for 6x4.5 composition.
--Dave (How many Daves are we?)
ZeissFan
Veteran
Because this has the Helomar, the Compur shutter will be simple to service. I have this same camera with the Helomar, and it's a decent lens for a triplet.
My camera has the hinged Moment yellow filter that is attached to the lens. Some cameras have them. Many don't.
The Bessa is a decent camera to use, although the focus-by-dial (a Voigtlander feature through the years) takes a bit of getting used to. I like the trigger for the release and how it retreats into the body when the lens bed is collapsed.
Overall, it's a good camera. I think the build of this camera is a bit lightweight, and at least one classic camera author criticizes Bessas for having an inadequately stiff front standard. I would agree that the metal used for the lens standard is too thin.
Regardless, it's a nice camera. Those film masks are still available -- if you're willing to be diligent in your search.
My camera has the hinged Moment yellow filter that is attached to the lens. Some cameras have them. Many don't.
The Bessa is a decent camera to use, although the focus-by-dial (a Voigtlander feature through the years) takes a bit of getting used to. I like the trigger for the release and how it retreats into the body when the lens bed is collapsed.
Overall, it's a good camera. I think the build of this camera is a bit lightweight, and at least one classic camera author criticizes Bessas for having an inadequately stiff front standard. I would agree that the metal used for the lens standard is too thin.
Regardless, it's a nice camera. Those film masks are still available -- if you're willing to be diligent in your search.
chippy
foo was here
just curious ZF, why is it you say the compur shutter easier to service with the helomar? as opposed to the scopar or heliar that also come on these bessa?
Argenticien
Dave
chippy
foo was here
thanks for the numbers Dave, the more i can collect the better to help determine the production dates and when the models changed. the film pressure plate on yours (i know you said spidery pattern but just to confirm) has the large de-bossed V (for Voitlander) in the center? going by the numbers i assume so. its only a kinda educated guess until i get more numbers but it appaers to me to be one of the later built Bessa RF in the first model series, (i will know when i collect more data) but some of the numbers seem to indicate so far it is most likely a 37 built camera.
the pressure plate on these early models does not seem to take having the more common mask (still scarce though) installed, i.e. the back door does not close with the V ridge on the common masks hitting the pressure plate because of no holeis provided in the pressure plate as on other bessa Rf, I, II models. the masks for these early model bessa RF seem to take the masks that can sometimes found in earlier bessa camera (without rangefinders) that do not have the V ridge on the mask to activate the red window flap.
your camera looks to be a very nice example, bellows look swish! shame about the shutter
ZeissFan
Veteran
As I recall, the front two elements are a single unit. Once removed, you can simply remove the face of the shutter elements.
With some Tessar-type lenses, there often is a middle element that is solidly bonded to the shutter assembly with no obvious means of removing it. Some lenses will have notches so that a spanner wrench can be used. But others don't, and decades of sitting tightly in a shutter assembly can make them very difficult to remove.
But it depends on the how the lens is assembled. Some lenses are assembled so that all of the lens elements that sit in front of a shutter are part of a single group. I haven't dealt with a Voigtlander 120-film camera with a Tessar-type or higher, so I can't say what type of assembly it has.
chippy
foo was here
ok yeah i see....the good news is that the Voigtlanda lenses are the same..easy, just screw them out
Argenticien
Dave
Right, easy for some, maybe!. I've never serviced a shutter before and I don't think it starts here. I paid US$170 for this thing (€115, AU$195, £90) which may be high for this model but a budget entry to folding 6x9 coupled RFs as compared to recent prices for Bessa IIs. Anyway, so I shan't muck about in this one. If I am ever to start servicing shutters, I'll learn/practice on sacrificial US$10 flea market cameras before working on one I care about. This one's likely going to Mark Hansen for the dark & dodgy RF anyway and then he'll do the shutter while he's at it (if a bit of exercise doesn't unstick B and T first).
chippy
foo was here
nah in your position i wouldn't muck around with it either being your first camera and possibly your not intending on fixing cameras per say (actually I probably would even in your position as its very satisfying to repair your own, but its wiser not too so i wouldnt recomend it), more so the shutter than the RF. particularly if it meant you have to buy screwdrivers, mirror, glue/shelack, cleaning fluid and so on. and besides if you can afford to have it repaired so much the better (some might say you cant afford to muck it up).
the comment was more intended to ZF whom appears to fix some cameras and mentioned how the lenses may of been installed on the bessas.
incidently argenticien you over paid!!!i just saw as new mint one with helomar for sale for $85 US!!
oh hang on ....it is new--the advertisment seems to be from 1937
Argenticien
Dave
Hey guys,
I ran a first test roll through the camera mentioned at the start of this thread. Winding was fine for all 8 frames ... then after No. 8, as I tried to wind on and roll up the film on the take-up reel, it stopped working somewhere between No. 8 and the end of the film. (I had to open the camera in a darkened room and wind off the end by hand.)
Specifically, it felt like the reel was spinning loosely in the taken-up film, or the wind knob was spinning without moving the reel. Is there any way that this dead-simple winding mechanism could work for the 8 frames but then fail this way? Or is it more likely I stupidly had the film leader incompletely slotted in the take-up spool such that when eventually the tension was too much, it slipped out? (Obviously, if I processed the roll myself, I could check for a slipped leader upon unrolling the film; but this was a color film so went to the shop.)
--Dave
I ran a first test roll through the camera mentioned at the start of this thread. Winding was fine for all 8 frames ... then after No. 8, as I tried to wind on and roll up the film on the take-up reel, it stopped working somewhere between No. 8 and the end of the film. (I had to open the camera in a darkened room and wind off the end by hand.)
Specifically, it felt like the reel was spinning loosely in the taken-up film, or the wind knob was spinning without moving the reel. Is there any way that this dead-simple winding mechanism could work for the 8 frames but then fail this way? Or is it more likely I stupidly had the film leader incompletely slotted in the take-up spool such that when eventually the tension was too much, it slipped out? (Obviously, if I processed the roll myself, I could check for a slipped leader upon unrolling the film; but this was a color film so went to the shop.)
--Dave
chippy
foo was here
i cant imagine that the film lead came out of the spool--after most of the film has been already wound onto the spool it would have enough to hold.
sounds like the wind knob came loose from the spool...if nothing is wrong with the knob or body frame around the spool (and you camera looks in good shape so i would guess not) then i can only guess that maybe the wind knob was not fully pushed into the body before closing the back door. it is one thing to watch for on the old bessa although after 8 frames i would think you would have noticed it not fully in...they can pop out if not pushed fully in before closing the door tho...
if you have and old roll of dud film you can test it in again and open in daylight
sounds like the wind knob came loose from the spool...if nothing is wrong with the knob or body frame around the spool (and you camera looks in good shape so i would guess not) then i can only guess that maybe the wind knob was not fully pushed into the body before closing the back door. it is one thing to watch for on the old bessa although after 8 frames i would think you would have noticed it not fully in...they can pop out if not pushed fully in before closing the door tho...
if you have and old roll of dud film you can test it in again and open in daylight
Argenticien
Dave
Andrew, I was pretty sure I had the knob both properly lodged into the spool and fully pushed into the body, since you helpfully warned me earlier. I had skipped doing the dud film test because I thought "there's nothing to this thing, what's to test?" Silly me. Maybe now I will.
Anyway the test roll is back. I did a bunch of focusing tests and found that the RF is out of calibration from the distance scale (focusing) knob. I set up some targets and tape-measured the distance. I found that when the RF showed a target to be in focus, it indeed turned out to be so on film, but for example when my target was 2 m away, the knob read about 1.8. And when I shot a target 1 m away with the knob reading 1m (and the RF looking out of focus), indeed it was out of focus on film. (Next target back at about 1.10 m was in focus -- consistent with the discrepancy above for 2 m.)
Hopefully Mark Hansen's CLA will solve these things. He has said he'll look at my film transport, and his RF alignment will hopefully sort the alignment. (Although it's not a show-stopper, having the dial read wrong, since the RF is indeed WYSIWYG.)
Otherwise it's a reasonably sharp lens! I'll post a test pic or two if I can get flickr to stop misbehaving.
Anyway the test roll is back. I did a bunch of focusing tests and found that the RF is out of calibration from the distance scale (focusing) knob. I set up some targets and tape-measured the distance. I found that when the RF showed a target to be in focus, it indeed turned out to be so on film, but for example when my target was 2 m away, the knob read about 1.8. And when I shot a target 1 m away with the knob reading 1m (and the RF looking out of focus), indeed it was out of focus on film. (Next target back at about 1.10 m was in focus -- consistent with the discrepancy above for 2 m.)
Hopefully Mark Hansen's CLA will solve these things. He has said he'll look at my film transport, and his RF alignment will hopefully sort the alignment. (Although it's not a show-stopper, having the dial read wrong, since the RF is indeed WYSIWYG.)
Otherwise it's a reasonably sharp lens! I'll post a test pic or two if I can get flickr to stop misbehaving.
chippy
foo was here
well your right there really isnt much too em....so it will be simply to fix if needed or it was just one of those unoticed mistakes....your off and running though eh
as you say no biggy if the scale is out as thats what the rangefinder is for...unless you should happen to use focar accessories
as you say no biggy if the scale is out as thats what the rangefinder is for...unless you should happen to use focar accessories