Ruvy
Established
You are right on both account. I have this tendency but as I have said earlier, the true solution to my question is in trying it. Will know better after playing with a RF camera.
Thakns
Artorius
Caribbean Traveler
Ruvy,
Don't know which part of Israel you are, but there are a few RFF members there. Seek one out and beg/borrow one for a while, if they would be so kind. Won't cost you more than a couple rolls of film, and maybe a lunch/dinner for him/her.
I started my career with range finders, transitioned to SLR's, then digital, and now, 30 years later, RF again both film and digital. It felt good to be back to my photographic roots. Still have the DSLR's, but they don't seem to get the same usage, except where an RF doesn't work for me.
Good luck in your endeavors.
Don't know which part of Israel you are, but there are a few RFF members there. Seek one out and beg/borrow one for a while, if they would be so kind. Won't cost you more than a couple rolls of film, and maybe a lunch/dinner for him/her.
I started my career with range finders, transitioned to SLR's, then digital, and now, 30 years later, RF again both film and digital. It felt good to be back to my photographic roots. Still have the DSLR's, but they don't seem to get the same usage, except where an RF doesn't work for me.
Good luck in your endeavors.
mh2000
Well-known
I didn't say SLR's were best at "everything," just "pretty much everything," which I guess could be watered down a little, but there is a reason that RF's became a small niche market after SLR's became widely available (and remember, there was a fairly long period where Japanese rangefinders were still offered as cheaper alternatives to SLR's, so it wasn't the high cost of Leicas that killed them).
I guess one reason that I like shooting RF's as a SLR alternative is that they somehow feel much more casual... when I'd feel like a geek carrying around a SLR I can carry around almost any RF and feel fine... I guess I don't have the religion in me, but I still really like shooting my modest RF collection (Retina IIa, Leica IIIc, OLY XA & ECR, and a bunch of FEDs and Zorkis)... but for serious shooting I will always prefer a SLR (for the DOF preview which is useful for composing, as is the exact frame VF instead of the really inaccurate RF VF's).
>>... All what has been said above is true. apart from what mh2000 said - SLR's are not best at everything,
I guess one reason that I like shooting RF's as a SLR alternative is that they somehow feel much more casual... when I'd feel like a geek carrying around a SLR I can carry around almost any RF and feel fine... I guess I don't have the religion in me, but I still really like shooting my modest RF collection (Retina IIa, Leica IIIc, OLY XA & ECR, and a bunch of FEDs and Zorkis)... but for serious shooting I will always prefer a SLR (for the DOF preview which is useful for composing, as is the exact frame VF instead of the really inaccurate RF VF's).
>>... All what has been said above is true. apart from what mh2000 said - SLR's are not best at everything,
Roger Hicks
Veteran
What is 'serious shooting'?
I use a DSLR for pack shots and soft focus, and SLRs generally for long focus lenses. In the days when I shot food, I used 6x7cm and 4x5 inch; I still own MF and LF cameras.
But the vast majority of my 'serious shooting', whether for publication or for pleasure, is with RFs, and has been for decades.
Cheers,
R.
Ruvy
Established
Thanks!
I live near Tel Aviv and I have done today just what you, Roger and other have suggested - got a RF camera loaned to me by a friend and started shooting. Still shooting my first roll but first impression is that I have a very hard time connecting to the feelings of ease and versatility expressed above in this thread. Hope its just a matter of getting used to the big differences in focusing, metering and composing and not an issue of things like my eye glasses, difficulty to accept change and as such.
mh2000
Well-known
for me, I mean serious shooting when the point of the moment is nothing but photography...
then things like the ability to frame precisely and at close distances makes for more reliable image making for *me*.
>>What is 'serious shooting'?
then things like the ability to frame precisely and at close distances makes for more reliable image making for *me*.
>>What is 'serious shooting'?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Para 1: Yes...
Para 2: Just as for me, the immediacy, smaller size, contrastier lenses, reduced obtrusivenesss, greater ease of holding steady, greater ease and speed of focusing, lack of mirror backout, etc., make it more reliable; again, for me.
The term 'serious shooting' may be seriously misleading here.
Cheers,
R.
oscroft
Veteran
I don't really have much of a religious attachment to either - I use both SLRs and RFs, and I think different situations are best approached with different kit. However I am relatively new to RFs, and I am more and more beginning to appreciate one advantage they have...
If I'm walking around and want to be able to "grab" shots without wanting to spend too much time focusing and framing, I'll preset the focus according to DOF and can then rapidly raise the camera and shoot at anything that I know is going to be within the DOF.
I find I just can't do that with SLRs. I know focus and DOF work the same, but with an SLR if it's not critically focused it looks blurred and I just psychologically can't take photos that look out of focus - I raise the camera, and instead of firing the shutter I instinctively start to refocus, and lose the moment.
If I'm walking around and want to be able to "grab" shots without wanting to spend too much time focusing and framing, I'll preset the focus according to DOF and can then rapidly raise the camera and shoot at anything that I know is going to be within the DOF.
I find I just can't do that with SLRs. I know focus and DOF work the same, but with an SLR if it's not critically focused it looks blurred and I just psychologically can't take photos that look out of focus - I raise the camera, and instead of firing the shutter I instinctively start to refocus, and lose the moment.
Artorius
Caribbean Traveler
I guess I am just lucky. In my early days with RF M2, M3 and SLR days, F1, F2, FTN, FM3A, F5 & F6, I used the prefocus/hyperfocal distance reguraly. With the advent of auto-focus most people don't even bother, let alone what it means. Like most of us oldies, we know how to focus without the auto mode.
With the Leicas, know your ASA/ISO, set the f siop, set your hyperfocal distance, and shoot away.
itf
itchy trigger finger
Oh man, I ask myself this all the time. Why RF? I consider selling my Leica every week. I only own an M4-2 and a couple of (relatively) cheap lenses, and for me that seems a lot of money tied up in a camera when I could get a film SLR and lenses for much cheaper and spend the change on film.
Then I pick up an SLR with a 28 on it! I don't like the diameter of the lenses and how much they stick out, the blackout, the way you see your focus. They're the main things but its enough to make me keep my rf for another week, every week.
I think I'm a bit strange though; I also love using external finders for wide lenses (wider than 35mm). As oscroft said, the temptation is to focus with an SLR even if the dof covers it, I find the same problems with moving framelines sometimes! The simpler, the faster, the better. For me that is.
However, for me, that these cameras are film is not a problem. As with SLRs, every now and then I think I have to start with digital. Then I realise that it may save me money, time, etc, but the trade off would be that every time I got the shot I'd be devastated it wasn't on film.
Then I pick up an SLR with a 28 on it! I don't like the diameter of the lenses and how much they stick out, the blackout, the way you see your focus. They're the main things but its enough to make me keep my rf for another week, every week.
I think I'm a bit strange though; I also love using external finders for wide lenses (wider than 35mm). As oscroft said, the temptation is to focus with an SLR even if the dof covers it, I find the same problems with moving framelines sometimes! The simpler, the faster, the better. For me that is.
However, for me, that these cameras are film is not a problem. As with SLRs, every now and then I think I have to start with digital. Then I realise that it may save me money, time, etc, but the trade off would be that every time I got the shot I'd be devastated it wasn't on film.
Ruvy
Established
Thanks. When I am looking at your gallery and read your rational they speak same language spoken form the heart.
So far it seems like I am trying to focus the RF really like a slr + measure light and adjust it. Compared to DSLR, end result for me so far is lesser immediacy and less attention to details/intimacy with the subject photographed. I hope its about getting used to it. I am at my first roll and am going to try 2-3 more rolls befor I can tell. I wish you lived closer so I can lend you my DSLR and let you see how diffrent things are when you are used to it. If you do decide to try it go for Sigma sd14 or the sd15 that coming out soon. Its the DSLR closest to film you can find
itf
itchy trigger finger
Ruvy, thank you very much for your kind words. I did start out using a basic film SLR (no auto exposure or auto focus), and at first I would adjust exposure and focus for every photo. I found this didn't work for me (for much the same reason you are currently struggling with the RF).
After a while I got used to adjusting exposure only when I needed to (setting exposure for the light I was in and changing it only when the light changed or I moved), and with a 28mm lens I would keep it as much as possible on f8 with the focus at about 2-2.5 metres. This gave enough dof to cover most photos I would take, so I could react as quickly as possible to most situations. If I needed to adjust focus, a small twist one way would move it closer, the other way, further (I would only usually adjust focus after already taking a photo, a slightly unsharp picture is better than the missed moment).
Using an SLR in this way was ok, but I thought there must be something with the viewfinder of a compact but the controls of an SLR. I hadn't known what an RF was, but turned out to be what I was after. It was easy to switch to RF, but not so easy to go back to SLR.
I started using RF coming from the opposite direction to you though, from my (limited) experience with DSLRs I can understand the confusion and difficulty in the change. Give the RF a go, then use what works for you
. Good luck.
Whew, massive post, didn't mean to share my history.
PS. There are also some reasonably cheap fixed lens RFs with auto exposure that may work for you, or make getting used to it easier.
After a while I got used to adjusting exposure only when I needed to (setting exposure for the light I was in and changing it only when the light changed or I moved), and with a 28mm lens I would keep it as much as possible on f8 with the focus at about 2-2.5 metres. This gave enough dof to cover most photos I would take, so I could react as quickly as possible to most situations. If I needed to adjust focus, a small twist one way would move it closer, the other way, further (I would only usually adjust focus after already taking a photo, a slightly unsharp picture is better than the missed moment).
Using an SLR in this way was ok, but I thought there must be something with the viewfinder of a compact but the controls of an SLR. I hadn't known what an RF was, but turned out to be what I was after. It was easy to switch to RF, but not so easy to go back to SLR.
I started using RF coming from the opposite direction to you though, from my (limited) experience with DSLRs I can understand the confusion and difficulty in the change. Give the RF a go, then use what works for you
. Good luck. Whew, massive post, didn't mean to share my history
.PS. There are also some reasonably cheap fixed lens RFs with auto exposure that may work for you, or make getting used to it easier.
JohnTF
Veteran
I envy the folks who have the muscle memory and experience to be totally at ease with a camera with little or no automation. I was close to that in my Crown Graphic days as a kid shooting sports when I had to turn on the flash, cock the shutter, pull the slide, stash the slide, focus, frame, shoot and dodge the on coming player.
If you were shooting a formal, there was no expectation of someone jumping around shooting like Arnold at Predator, so you took a bit more time.
I did shoot candids with a zone focus 35mm, and I think I was just about the only one, bigger camera meant more professional then, and it was a blue collar area, only doctors owned Leicas. Still, I got a totally different perspective in the shots with my Signet 50, which among my peers was certainly a change.
A possible transition to the feel of the focal lengths, size, and feel of RF's might be the Contax G series. I just saw one at a camera show for $300 asking price with normal lens, and that is a lot of camera for the dollar. You have the option of automation and the feel of RF. Excellent images, Zeiss glass, and I do not think you would have trouble selling it, or keeping it for a back up if you decide to take a step in to M Leica Land.
Just a thought.
Regards, John
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NathanJD
Well-known
Being someone who came from DSLRs to RFs it was the challenge, the grittyness and non-uniformity that I fell in love with. You really have to get bitten by the bug to 'get' RF photography I think, and one thing's for sure - the user's gallery here on RFF is unlike any user's gallery i've seen on any other photography forum on the web - infact the kind of pic I aspire to; the kind that get's lapped up here is absolutely lost to the crowds of 'sunset this and macro that' folks in the rest of civilisation.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
In addition to the technical advantages described earlier in the thread....
An RF style of shooting is a like a familiar and comfortable shoes you wear for taking a walk in the park.
To most people, you look like a tourist, idly snapping pictures.
To most photographers around, you look like a harmless, clueless guy/girl with a small camera, snapping pictures.
But when you meet the perceptive ones, most likely they shoot RF themselves, you feel that instant bond, a knowing wink, a faint thumbs-up...
It's really cool
An RF style of shooting is a like a familiar and comfortable shoes you wear for taking a walk in the park.
To most people, you look like a tourist, idly snapping pictures.
To most photographers around, you look like a harmless, clueless guy/girl with a small camera, snapping pictures.
But when you meet the perceptive ones, most likely they shoot RF themselves, you feel that instant bond, a knowing wink, a faint thumbs-up...
It's really cool