retro
Well-known
An honest mistake is not fraud.
Do you honestly believe that a photo-clueless seller intentionally
advertised a non-working camera as working so as to defraud
someone of their measly 20 bucks?
Photo-clueless people think that if the "handle" moves and the
"button" pushes then the camera works. That is the reality
of our photo-clueless society. They don't even know that
we buy these cameras to use. They think we only collect them
to keep on a shelf.
If one is smart one can take advantage of this fact and get
some mighty decent bargains. I do it all the time. I received
a mint AF Nikkor zoom today for 1/4 it's value because
the clueless seller said it wouldn't autofocus on his D40 (of
course it wouldn't -- no AF Nikkor will). So, he listed it
as "needing repair" and it sold at a fraction of its value. I have
many other examples of this sort of thing.
It doesn't take much of an IQ to tell if a seller knows cameras or
not and if they obviously don't and they say it's working -- then
it's your fault for being so naive to take a person's word who
obviously wouldn't know a shutter from a dog biscuit.
Try taking the high road -- you'll make out better in the long run.
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retro
Well-known
I have to say I agree with this 100%.
Livesteamer
Well-known
Yesterday I posted that I had 50+ old cameras, most of which arrived by mail. In all that time, two arrived dead, a jammed Nikon F and a Canon F1 with an intermittent shutter. Both sellers happily made good on the problem camera. It appears you didn't give this seller a chance. You say "No Mercy" "Retribution!" That's a sad way to conduct business or your life. Joe
I would bet a large amount of money that Ruben has never sold on eBay, only bought.
I can only wish that if he ever does sell, his first buyer is someone like himself.
He is the nightmare buyer for eBay sellers, the kind that has destroyed all the fun in online auctions.
I can only wish that if he ever does sell, his first buyer is someone like himself.
He is the nightmare buyer for eBay sellers, the kind that has destroyed all the fun in online auctions.
R
ruben
Guest
btgc
Veteran
My experience with KAS and KAS2 so far is that they need work on leafs - both shutter and especially aperture.
Generally, I heartfully agree to ZeissFan and this dictates my bidding habits - I don't buy those few CLAed FL RF's (because of high price) and expect to buy cheap or very cheap camera needing work. I just take as granted camera has problems (I'm talking about inexpensive stuff which nobody has serviced on regular basis like expensive gear) and bid accordingly, skipping those with shipping over us$30 (overseas).
If shutter is slow after 40 years of sitting in drawer or aperture leafs need cleaning, it's still way better condition than one could expect from car unusued for 40 years (general case, common storage conditions). Sure, if it were stored in barn next to sewing machine, they can look same this days. Light seals I'm not even considering as problem. Problem is broken or missing part, if this weren't announced in listing.
Lately I've come to conclusion that I might let go some gear to use more few cameras I really like (yes, I feel having right stuff) and don't waste time, sight and money on photoetnography. But that's completely different topic which I don't want to invade here.
Nickon51
Member
To return to the question why,
It is purely and simply the grease or oil that was used by that maufacturer of that camera at that time. Oil migrates, by different methods, from its original location to the aperture blades and stick them together. Oil evaporates out of the grease base and leaves the parts dry and gummy.
Storage also has an effect on how quickly the grease dries up, migrates, goes sticky.
Cameras are not the only fine mechanisms that are affected by this. Clocks, Hi Fi turntables are just a couple more.
In defence of the seller of the camera, it is possible to fire a shutter that sounds ok, and yet the aperture blades don't move. Unless you know enough to look thro the lens at the moment of firing the shutter, then you will miss that fault.
I never assume that a leaf shutter on a camera will work properly unless the seller has done some sort of speed test on it, however rudimentary, to see that light is actually getting thro the shutter. In addition to the iris and shutter leaves, there are also the 3 different retard mechanisms and the focus helicoids are affected by failing lubricants.
Learning about leaf shutter and how to repair them was the best thing I ever did. The majority of range finders and folders that I have bought cheaply were not working but now are.
Have fun fixing them
Cheers
Greg
It is purely and simply the grease or oil that was used by that maufacturer of that camera at that time. Oil migrates, by different methods, from its original location to the aperture blades and stick them together. Oil evaporates out of the grease base and leaves the parts dry and gummy.
Storage also has an effect on how quickly the grease dries up, migrates, goes sticky.
Cameras are not the only fine mechanisms that are affected by this. Clocks, Hi Fi turntables are just a couple more.
In defence of the seller of the camera, it is possible to fire a shutter that sounds ok, and yet the aperture blades don't move. Unless you know enough to look thro the lens at the moment of firing the shutter, then you will miss that fault.
I never assume that a leaf shutter on a camera will work properly unless the seller has done some sort of speed test on it, however rudimentary, to see that light is actually getting thro the shutter. In addition to the iris and shutter leaves, there are also the 3 different retard mechanisms and the focus helicoids are affected by failing lubricants.
Learning about leaf shutter and how to repair them was the best thing I ever did. The majority of range finders and folders that I have bought cheaply were not working but now are.
Have fun fixing them
Cheers
Greg
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R
ruben
Guest
Thanks btgc,
I know you have recently toured these cameras, so I have to conclude that my experience is not the magic wand.
Well, after all I have bought some dozen of Kievs, but not a dozen of Konicas
Best,
Ruben
R
ruben
Guest
Hi Greg,
Many thanks for your info. I was not aware that fixed lens rangefinders left the factory with oil or grease. I have seen very few shutters in reality. Your explanation changes all my assumptions.
Cheers,
Ruben
ZeissFan
Veteran
Grease is used to lubricate lens helicals. Otherwise you have metal-on-metal, which isn't good for any parts that rotate in this manner.
Through the years, lubricant can harden (Agfa lenses) or depending on where the camera was kept can liquify and end up in the shutter or on the shutter and/or aperture blades. This is another reason for not keeping a camera in a car, especially in hot climates.
It's common.
It's to be expected that nearly any camera that is now at least 30 years old and sometimes 70 years old (Kodak Retinas, for example) will need to be serviced. It's really the rule and not the exception. Of the 10 or so cameras from the Konica Auto S era that I've owned, none have worked. All of them needed to be overhauled.
Most sellers don't understand the mechanics of a shutter (and some buyers don't either). There's nothing wrong with that. It's just a fact. Most people don't know how an internal combustion engine works, yet we drive them hundreds of thousands of miles without ever thinking about it.
The majority of sellers are simply selling a camera that was found in an attic, in a shoe box, a bin, in a basement, a closet or the trunk of a car and probably don't know if the camera works.
I strongly disagree with how you treated the sellers.
Through the years, lubricant can harden (Agfa lenses) or depending on where the camera was kept can liquify and end up in the shutter or on the shutter and/or aperture blades. This is another reason for not keeping a camera in a car, especially in hot climates.
It's common.
It's to be expected that nearly any camera that is now at least 30 years old and sometimes 70 years old (Kodak Retinas, for example) will need to be serviced. It's really the rule and not the exception. Of the 10 or so cameras from the Konica Auto S era that I've owned, none have worked. All of them needed to be overhauled.
Most sellers don't understand the mechanics of a shutter (and some buyers don't either). There's nothing wrong with that. It's just a fact. Most people don't know how an internal combustion engine works, yet we drive them hundreds of thousands of miles without ever thinking about it.
The majority of sellers are simply selling a camera that was found in an attic, in a shoe box, a bin, in a basement, a closet or the trunk of a car and probably don't know if the camera works.
I strongly disagree with how you treated the sellers.
R
ruben
Guest
Hi Greg and Hi ZeissFan
Upon your tech info I am trying on my own responsibility a kind of "war field bondage".
My main problem is that I don't want by any means to disassemble the lens compound beyond the necessary to put the glass parts out. This is definitive as I have jammed every other camera in which I went further.
During the last days, after disassembling the lens, I have poured in alcohol and it helped partially only for a few hours. I have poured more and more, with the same result.
But now, after hearing that these mechanisms work on the basis of oil, I have poured some oil and the shutter is still working for a longer time already.
So I guess my problem from now will be to clear as much oil as possible, by leaving the camera in different positions every time, cleaning the flowing out oil, and repeat the operation during long weeks.
If this "kitchinette" solution works..... hmmm a lot of folks will be happy.
Cheers,
Ruben
PS
As for the how do I treat the sellers, kindly be wise enough to understand that one attitude here posted doesn't embrace the whole of my history with the many sellers I have dealt with, even those from which I have got bad gear - perhaps in the same spirit that I have been wise enough to tell myself I don't know everything so let's hear other technical opinions, and changed here my most basic assumptions.
Can we stop this side issue now ?
Cheers,
Ruben
PS 2
Hi Valdemar,
I notice you are reading this thread now - how is going with your beatifull kid
Upon your tech info I am trying on my own responsibility a kind of "war field bondage".
My main problem is that I don't want by any means to disassemble the lens compound beyond the necessary to put the glass parts out. This is definitive as I have jammed every other camera in which I went further.
During the last days, after disassembling the lens, I have poured in alcohol and it helped partially only for a few hours. I have poured more and more, with the same result.
But now, after hearing that these mechanisms work on the basis of oil, I have poured some oil and the shutter is still working for a longer time already.
So I guess my problem from now will be to clear as much oil as possible, by leaving the camera in different positions every time, cleaning the flowing out oil, and repeat the operation during long weeks.
If this "kitchinette" solution works..... hmmm a lot of folks will be happy.
Cheers,
Ruben
PS
As for the how do I treat the sellers, kindly be wise enough to understand that one attitude here posted doesn't embrace the whole of my history with the many sellers I have dealt with, even those from which I have got bad gear - perhaps in the same spirit that I have been wise enough to tell myself I don't know everything so let's hear other technical opinions, and changed here my most basic assumptions.
Can we stop this side issue now ?
Cheers,
Ruben
PS 2
Hi Valdemar,
I notice you are reading this thread now - how is going with your beatifull kid
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M. Valdemar
Well-known
Why stop the "side issue"?
One of the main points of your original post was the glee you took in negging the sellers.
If you were strictly concerned with the shutter mechanics, you would have confined your original post to that subject.
One of the main points of your original post was the glee you took in negging the sellers.
If you were strictly concerned with the shutter mechanics, you would have confined your original post to that subject.
btgc
Veteran
Ruben, as alcohol contains water, after this remedy action I'd make sure to clean camera or at least let it dry well. If you keep camera in way, preventing good drying, I'm afraid alcohol can make more damage than it did good freeing shutter for some hours. Residue left after alcohol dries out, also isn't best thing for internals. I hope you used purest medical spirit available, that would make less harm.
Naphtha, lighter fluid are our friends.
Nickon51
Member
I have to agree with btgc in that lighter fluid, naptha, colemans fuel, etc is far better than alcohol for cleaning shutters (in most cases).
One method that is commonly used is to squirt naptha into the shutter with a syringe body. This flush cleaning loosens the accumulated crud and frees up the shutter. You will need to exercise the shutter repeatedly and flush several times. The down side of this method is that you don't get to relube anything and there will still be traces of dirt inside the shutter.
If just the blades are sticky, get some naptha onto them and exercise the shutter. You can get a lot working like that.
Pouring in oil is not recommended, so you will need to flush that out with naptha.
Good luck
Greg
One method that is commonly used is to squirt naptha into the shutter with a syringe body. This flush cleaning loosens the accumulated crud and frees up the shutter. You will need to exercise the shutter repeatedly and flush several times. The down side of this method is that you don't get to relube anything and there will still be traces of dirt inside the shutter.
If just the blades are sticky, get some naptha onto them and exercise the shutter. You can get a lot working like that.
Pouring in oil is not recommended, so you will need to flush that out with naptha.
Good luck
Greg
Stu W
Well-known
I posted this 2 days ago, when all this business started. If you would have simply read it instead of composing 9000 word poetic posts your camera would be working right now. I'm sorry Ruben, but it appears that you're not looking for help or advice-you just like to read your own posts.
By the way-now that you gave the shutter the oil bath spa treatment you can kiss the camera goodbye. Blade shutters must be absolutely pristine and dry. The blades are so close fitting that a speck of lubricant will cause enough surface tension on them that even Superman wouldn't be able to pull them apart. In the past 40 years some of the minute amount of oil that is found on the pivot pins migrates to the blades causing the surface tension and a nice place for pollutants to stick. Cleaning with naptha probably would have fixed the problem. Sorry about being so blunt, but I have to call 'em as I see 'em.
M. Valdemar
Well-known
Here's the first line of your OP.
Not only were you "pist", but you happily looked forward to "ruining" someone's feedback.
A stupid act of a little man. Give him a tiny bit of power over someone else and he abuses it.
But you're Mr. "Fair and Balanced". It's OK to act altruistic when somebody ELSE is harming someone.
Gumby
Veteran
I can't wait to see how the "for sale" posting is worded when this camera goes up for sale the next time.
micromontenegro
Well-known
Yours is no disgrace. Except, of course, for the sellers that probably acted in good faith (no one is guilty until proved otherwise, etc)
retro
Well-known
The side issue is the sticky shutter question. Is it really news to
you that oily blades causes leaf shutters to become sticky? Hard
to believe, ruben.
Perhaps if you limited yourself to buying used cameras only when
you can inspect them before purchase, you might be able to enjoy
your hobby without damaging the livelihoods of others.
Whisper
Member
1965 Canonet> 9 out of 10 will have gummed up shutter blades.
Konica S2> 50% will need the shutter blades cleaned first. It is the #1 reason for busted blades on them.
And a note to you. If you ever come up as bidder on one of my auctions, you will be banned.
Konica S2> 50% will need the shutter blades cleaned first. It is the #1 reason for busted blades on them.
And a note to you. If you ever come up as bidder on one of my auctions, you will be banned.