M8 users that still use film?

[JeremyLangford]

My M8 led me to film. And since that point I have used the M8 about 4 times.

That's exactly what happened to me except it was a Canon 30d instead of an M8. I just felt like I was never happy with my digital images. No grain, not enough dynamic range, and super slow lenses.

I think that once I learn more about scanning/post-processing for web use, and I make a website that I may want a digital rangefinder one day with a good lens (Something you don't always see with DSLRs).

But until then Im glad I don't have to worry about being unsatisfied with my results due to my equipment. With film, you know that if the picture is bad, its your own fault. With digital, you can always question whether the shot is bad because it wasn't film.

 

[Richard Marks]

Do you have any RA4 prints made from files? Put them side by side with the ink jet. And you can have RA4 for prints directly from negs.

I really like the Jobo processor as well, and the roller processor is
Durst I think, have not used it.

Obviously the controls are much different, but I liked being able to quickly edge burn, dodge, and adjust color and density. Print cost was lower, and the look of a sharp glossy is what I hope for in any alternate process.

BTW, that Hassy 500"cm" must be a bear to haul, just kidding, I know it might be illegal to buy a lens in inches now. ;-) Even the 500mm is pretty big. Is the car Whitworth (sp?), I just remember the wrenches had a W on them.

John

Hi John
I will have to look into this. Not an urgent priority. It is hard enough getting consistent supplies of black and white stuff in the UK. Choice is becoming very limited.

Hassy is always a bit more effort to use, but it makes you pay attention!

The car is a Morgan. They still make them pretty much like this!

Best wishes

Richard

 

[JohnTF]

Hi John
I will have to look into this. Not an urgent priority. It is hard enough getting consistent supplies of black and white stuff in the UK. Choice is becoming very limited.

Hassy is always a bit more effort to use, but it makes you pay attention!

The car is a Morgan. They still make them pretty much like this!

Best wishes

Richard

Having used a Rollei for many years, the reflex viewing still comes naturally to me, when I want that lower perspective, but I know what you mean, I know someone who has shot street work with a Hassy, and I guess I have with a Mamiya, but tended to rely on the longer lenses when I did.

Somehow seems a different feel shooting a person you do not know with a RF. A Hassy is a lot of camera to put in front of someone.

Been a long time since they "banned" new Morgans because, I understand the frame, and a few other do dads. You might get an exemption, there is an appeal process, I tried to get the Final Edition VW in to the US, no easy go.

Those folks get along better with Bill Gates and Jay Leno for some reason.

What papers and supplies are you having particular trouble finding? I think almost everyone here has been mail ordering for a long time, few local stores were keeping stocked. My supplies are rapidly approaching the age of my Whiskys. Am watching a bit for a new freezer.

Regards, John

 

[Tuolumne]

That's exactly what happened to me except it was a Canon 30d instead of an M8. I just felt like I was never happy with my digital images. No grain, not enough dynamic range, and super slow lenses.

I think that once I learn more about scanning/post-processing for web use, and I make a website that I may want a digital rangefinder one day with a good lens (Something you don't always see with DSLRs).

But until then Im glad I don't have to worry about being unsatisfied with my results due to my equipment. With film, you know that if the picture is bad, its your own fault. With digital, you can always question whether the shot is bad because it wasn't film.

I find that just the opposite is true. If you blow a digital photo, it's your own fault. You get to see a histogram, you get a wysiwyg view of the frame in a monitor that shows you EXACTLY what it will look like when you take it, you get to review it after the photo is taken and see the blown highlights blinking at you, review your framing, etc. How can you possibly blame your equipment if you blow a digital photo? With film, otoh, you are shooting blind. No idea what your film "sees" compared to your eye, no exposure errors to check until you get the film back from the processor, no blown highlights to see and do a retake. When I blow a film photo, I just lay it down to shooting blindly, which is what film is, and move on to the next bad frame on the roll.

/T

 

[Richard Marks]

Having used a Rollei for many years, the reflex viewing still comes naturally to me, when I want that lower perspective, but I know what you mean, I know someone who has shot street work with a Hassy, and I guess I have with a Mamiya, but tended to rely on the longer lenses when I did.

Somehow seems a different feel shooting a person you do not know with a RF. A Hassy is a lot of camera to put in front of someone.

Been a long time since they "banned" new Morgans because, I understand the frame, and a few other do dads. You might get an exemption, there is an appeal process, I tried to get the Final Edition VW in to the US, no easy go.

Those folks get along better with Bill Gates and Jay Leno for some reason.

What papers and supplies are you having particular trouble finding? I think almost everyone here has been mail ordering for a long time, few local stores were keeping stocked. My supplies are rapidly approaching the age of my Whiskys. Am watching a bit for a new freezer.

Regards, John

Dear John
This is slightly off topic, but are you telling me you can not import a new Morgan to the US?

I really would not use a Hassy for candids. In fact I can honestly say it does not get much use, but i would never be without it.

Regarding mail order, yes this is how things have become. I am already anxious about black and white and probably do not want to get into the colour print game. Incidentally however good a malt is, you always know that there are plenty more barrels in some dark store room waiting to be bottled . Not sure the same applies to dark room colour supplies.

best wishes

Richard

 

[JeremyLangford]

I find that just the opposite is true. If you blow a digital photo, it's your own fault. You get to see a histogram, you get a wysiwyg view of the frame in a monitor that shows you EXACTLY what it will look like when you take it, you get to review it after the photo is taken and see the blown highlights blinking at you, review your framing, etc. How can you possibly blame your equipment if you blow a digital photo? With film, otoh, you are shooting blind. No idea what your film "sees" compared to your eye, no exposure errors to check until you get the film back from the processor, no blown highlights to see and do a retake. When I blow a film photo, I just lay it down to shooting blindly, which is what film is, and move on to the next bad frame on the roll.

/T

I do not view film as shooting blindly. Its hard to shoot blindly with a light meter and a viewfinder. You should get very good at getting exposure dead on and not needing an instant result on the back of the camera.

It is very simply to blame your digital camera for blown highlights because digital cameras do not have as good of dynamic range as film.

 

[JoeV]

That doesn't seem to follow. The world is full of plenty of technologies that superseded older that no one remembers or cares to.../T

Actually, I disagree. I suppose one could argue that the state of education has rendered our children incapable of comprehending recent history, especially technological history. That just makes us technologically illiterate; and our children are the worst for it. And it doesn't excuse it.

But that in no way precludes us from an understanding that where we are now with photography in the 21st century is that photographers are skilled in working with every conceivable method of writing with light, from the earliest wet-plate processes to the most recent revolution in electronic imaging. They're all tools in our toolbox. Rather than being outmoded processes "that no one remembers or cares to," there has been a resurgence of interest and activity in what are now termed "alternative processes." This is the next big thing in photographic image-making, and it's happening right now. And it's not an "either/or", closed set of rules, where in order for one method to gain popularity another has to go by the wayside. A rising tide floats all boats; the pool of photographic knowledge is ever expanding, precisely because we DON'T discard the methods we have learned from the past, but rather we add to them, develop them, make them better.

Have you not been paying attention?

These aren't mere ludittes, or digi-phobes, intent on driving their horse-drawn buggies to market to buy another bottle of fixer, afraid of them demon electronic cameras. These are artists and craftspeople who have discovered (or rediscovered) alternative image-making methods that expand on the current technology, such as creating digital internegatives for printing with alternative process methods, for instance.

There's a much bigger world of photographic image making than just the consumer electronic devices marketed to us by multi-national corporations. To ignore that is simply small-mindedness.

~Joe

 

[Tuolumne]

Actually, I disagree. I suppose one could argue that the state of education has rendered our children incapable of comprehending recent history, especially technological history. That just makes us technologically illiterate; and our children are the worst for it. And it doesn't excuse it.

But that in no way precludes us from an understanding that where we are now with photography in the 21st century is that photographers are skilled in working with every conceivable method of writing with light, from the earliest wet-plate processes to the most recent revolution in electronic imaging. They're all tools in our toolbox. Rather than being outmoded processes "that no one remembers or cares to," there has been a resurgence of interest and activity in what are now termed "alternative processes." This is the next big thing in photographic image-making, and it's happening right now. And it's not an "either/or", closed set of rules, where in order for one method to gain popularity another has to go by the wayside. A rising tide floats all boats; the pool of photographic knowledge is ever expanding, precisely because we DON'T discard the methods we have learned from the past, but rather we add to them, develop them, make them better.

Have you not been paying attention?

These aren't mere ludittes, or digi-phobes, intent on driving their horse-drawn buggies to market to buy another bottle of fixer, afraid of them demon electronic cameras. These are artists and craftspeople who have discovered (or rediscovered) alternative image-making methods that expand on the current technology, such as creating digital internegatives for printing with alternative process methods, for instance.

There's a much bigger world of photographic image making than just the consumer electronic devices marketed to us by multi-national corporations. To ignore that is simply small-mindedness.

~Joe

I don't see what all this has to do with the original proposition, which was that to know film technology makes you a better digital photographer. It may make you more knowledgeable about different photographic processes, but it still does not follow either logically or experientially that it makes you a better digital photographer. All of which, by the way, has nothing at all to do with weather or not alternate forms are becoming more or less popular or are more or less useful. People will always explore the different, just because it is different. That's human nature. How about 100 years from now? Do you think anyone will be shooting film then? Do you think photographers will be cutting their teeth on film? Do you think they will be worse photographers for all that?

/T

 

[Tuolumne]

I do not view film as shooting blindly. Its hard to shoot blindly with a light meter and a viewfinder. You should get very good at getting exposure dead on and not needing an instant result on the back of the camera.

It is very simply to blame your digital camera for blown highlights because digital cameras do not have as good of dynamic range as film.

It's shooting blindly in so far as you cannot "see" (blindness is the opposite of seeing) what the camera sees as it captures the scene and soon enough thereafter to make an immediate correction. why do you think Polaroid backs were so popular in the day? They let the photographer instantly see what the camera saw.

/T

 

[baycrest]

My first camera was a rangefinder some 40 years ago.

Picked up an M8 last year for a bit of nostalgia.

And recently, figured I'd go the whole hog and buy a M6 on eBay. I like the feel and handling/balance of the M6 over the M8, the muted shutter sound, & lower vibration levels.

Best
Rob

 

[Simon Larbalestier]

My first camera was a rangefinder some 40 years ago.

Picked up an M8 last year for a bit of nostalgia.

And recently, figured I'd go the whole hog and buy a M6 on eBay. I like the feel and handling/balance of the M6 over the M8, the muted shutter sound, & lower vibration levels.

Best
Rob

I'll admit that the M6/MP are both quieter but Tim Isaac's Thumbs Up on the M8 makes handling much easier so much so i might be ordering some more for my film M's.....

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

I'll admit that the M6/MP are both quieter but Tim Isaac's Thumbs Up on the M8 makes handling much easier so much so i might be ordering some more for my film M's.....

The M8.2 is about as quiet as an M7 now. Although I handled it for a whopping 10 minutes.

I'm curious about this Thumbs Up thingy. The size recommendations seem counterintuitive to me: the bigger the hand, the smaller you'd want that Thumbs Up model. Who here with "big hands" can attest to the differences with all three models?

fwiw, I've never used the rewind lever in my film cameras as a place to rest my thumb. To me that's a no-no anyway.

 

[jan normandale]

... When I blow a film photo, I just lay it down to shooting blindly, which is what film is, and move on to the next bad frame on the roll.

/T

..now I understand. (j/k)
Actually that is one of the things I like about film, it's "the surprises" I get. I'm used to moving on to the next 'bad frame'

 

[Simon Larbalestier]

I'm curious about this Thumbs Up thingy. The size recommendations seem counterintuitive to me: the bigger the hand, the smaller you'd want that Thumbs Up model. Who here with "big hands" can attest to the differences with all three models?

fwiw, I've never used the rewind lever in my film cameras as a place to rest my thumb. To me that's a no-no anyway.

Gabriel i just plumbed for the Size 3 which i believe was the original design , you can always email Tim - he's very responsive. Having got it i can't see i'd want a shorter version. Also i've never used the rewind levers as thumb rests either but having used it on the m8.2 i'd now consider getting several of these Thumbs Ups and they work especially well with Lutz's Sling. I'd guess this has got a bit OT now.....

 

[JohnTF]

Dear John
This is slightly off topic, but are you telling me you can not import a new Morgan to the US?

I really would not use a Hassy for candids. In fact I can honestly say it does not get much use, but i would never be without it.

Regarding mail order, yes this is how things have become. I am already anxious about black and white and probably do not want to get into the colour print game. Incidentally however good a malt is, you always know that there are plenty more barrels in some dark store room waiting to be bottled . Not sure the same applies to dark room colour supplies.

best wishes

Richard

Richard,

Morgans have been "banned" from import to the US for more than 30 years. At first, I think, it was "safety" issues back when they were trying to make all bumpers crash proof, etc. Are the frames still Oak?

Now, there are all kinds of specs, for the type and markings on glass, to lights, bumpers, etc. There might an exemption because of low numbers of manufacturer, but as I recall, these are not very common, though for some reason they let the Mini's in.

I think the numbers on MG's and other Brit cars show the majority were sold in the US, have no idea on the Morgans, they always seemed to be more exclusive if only for the small numbers, still I used to spot one occasionally.

As to the supplies, if chemistry becomes tight, I still have supplier contacts and sets of balances from teaching chemistry, and I see the folks in the far off places, such as Prague, and I suspect Japan as well, are still quite serious about silver.

I do not worry much about color, RA4 printing, as a lot of digital is printed on RA4. I think it is better, and from the start digital paper was more expensive than silver paper.

Hand print darkroom work for at least the last 50 years was a niche market, and it was subsidized by the manufacturers who profited largely from amateur demand for film in general. 15 years ago Agfa B&W tech support told me that B&W was far less than 1% of their film business, but they kept suppling the niche, by choice.

Those who will supply that niche-- Forte, Foma, Ilford, Fuji, Efke, Berrger, etc., should continue long enough to keep us from having to coat our own papers, I hope.

Hey, I still miss the Ansco, old Bergger, old Oriental Seagul, Neobrom and Dupont papers.

I once had 5000 sheets of my favorite paper coated, cut, and shipped by air freight to me by Neobrom. I think the plant is still sitting there in Brno, if we could just get enough RFF members to buy it---- They had even Silver Iodide contact papers, photo linen, and probably more than a dozen other types of paper. They used to include test strips.

Former manager got his Mercedes and moved on. I offered to market their papers in the US, but yet I had to hire an exporter to get the stuff shipped, they could not even figure how to ship to the US.

IMO, they would be a viable Niche marketer today, if they so wanted it.

Foma is still a bit awkward in their exporting, I was part of Foma USA, a minor part, and they cut off their first US importer at the first sign of difficulty with Kodak.


Regards, John

 

[Richard Marks]

Richard,

Morgans have been "banned" from import to the US for more than 30 years. At first, I think, it was "safety" issues back when they were trying to make all bumpers crash proof, etc. Are the frames still Oak?

Now, there are all kinds of specs, for the type and markings on glass, to lights, bumpers, etc. There might an exemption because of low numbers of manufacturer, but as I recall, these are not very common, though for some reason they let the Mini's in.

I think the numbers on MG's and other Brit cars show the majority were sold in the US, have no idea on the Morgans, they always seemed to be more exclusive if only for the small numbers, still I used to spot one occasionally.

As to the supplies, if chemistry becomes tight, I still have supplier contacts and sets of balances from teaching chemistry, and I see the folks in the far off places, such as Prague, and I suspect Japan as well, are still quite serious about silver.

I do not worry much about color, RA4 printing, as a lot of digital is printed on RA4. I think it is better, and from the start digital paper was more expensive than silver paper.

Hand print darkroom work for at least the last 50 years was a niche market, and it was subsidized by the manufacturers who profited largely from amateur demand for film in general. 15 years ago Agfa B&W tech support told me that B&W was far less than 1% of their film business, but they kept suppling the niche, by choice.

Those who will supply that niche-- Forte, Foma, Ilford, Fuji, Efke, Berrger, etc., should continue long enough to keep us from having to coat our own papers, I hope.

Hey, I still miss the Ansco, old Bergger, old Oriental Seagul, Neobrom and Dupont papers.

I once had 5000 sheets of my favorite paper coated, cut, and shipped by air freight to me by Neobrom. I think the plant is still sitting there in Brno, if we could just get enough RFF members to buy it---- They had even Silver Iodide contact papers, photo linen, and probably more than a dozen other types of paper. They used to include test strips.

Former manager got his Mercedes and moved on. I offered to market their papers in the US, but yet I had to hire an exporter to get the stuff shipped, they could not even figure how to ship to the US.

IMO, they would be a viable Niche marketer today, if they so wanted it.

Foma is still a bit awkward in their exporting, I was part of Foma USA, a minor part, and they cut off their first US importer at the first sign of difficulty with Kodak.


Regards, John

Hi I reeally did not realise you could not import a new Moggy. The chasis is galvanised steel. There is actually ash (not oak) in some of the cross members supporting the body work, but its pretty safe. Very flexible and suprisingly strong. Its a pretty safe car, but the biggest risk fator i suppose for any vehicle is the driver! Maybe we should make some special US export models 2.5 x the size!

Interestingly. last weeks Amateur Photography (fairly popular UK weekly) reported increasing black and white film sales. Particularly from 'young professional' portrait photographers. Mainly Tri-x.

I love Foma products. Their ASA100 film is superb stuff. Also their matt warm tone papers!

Best wishes


Richard

 

[JohnTF]

Hi I reeally did not realise you could not import a new Moggy. The chasis is galvanised steel. There is actually ash (not oak) in some of the cross members supporting the body work, but its pretty safe. Very flexible and suprisingly strong. Its a pretty safe car, but the biggest risk fator i suppose for any vehicle is the driver! Maybe we should make some special US export models 2.5 x the size!

Interestingly. last weeks Amateur Photography (fairly popular UK weekly) reported increasing black and white film sales. Particularly from 'young professional' portrait photographers. Mainly Tri-x.

I love Foma products. Their ASA100 film is superb stuff. Also their matt warm tone papers!

Best wishes


Richard

A real problem is that people just do not see small cars, I have a 70 B, and people turn in front of me, or just do not see. When I pull up next to a truck, the hood hardly reaches the lugs of the wheels. Glad to hear the use of Galvanized steel, I wonder how much of my car actually came out of the factory when I look at the invoices from the prior owner.

An open car is great to drive around keeping an eye for photos.

My favorite Foma film is still the 200, used to like the 800, but it is long gone. Was a rumor Kodak sued them over the technology. I know they made them (Us) stop selling the 200 under the name "T 200", so it was sold as Paterson Acupan 200, Creative 200 and perhaps one more. I understand the 100 and 400 are old tech films. Roger gave the 200 high marks, and back when I was doing some testing, it seemed to give one more gray tone.

They had a serious problem with dirt in the MF films, but the 35 was pretty good, and for a long time the cartridges were old fashioned pop offs.

More film than food in the fridges and freezers. ;-)

Regards, J

 

[Richard Marks]

I like the Foma 200 as well particularly medium format, but if im getting that kit out I usually go for Adox 25.
Maybe I like the 'old' technology' of Foma 100. I think the main thing is I can enlarge the 35mm asa100 pretty big.

Richard

 

[baycrest]

I'll admit that the M6/MP are both quieter but Tim Isaac's Thumbs Up on the M8 makes handling much easier so much so i might be ordering some more for my film M's.....

I put mine in a Luigi Half case. The standard cases have a small bump on the front where your hand holds onto the camera. The leather case makes handling much easier and also protects a large portion of the camera body. His cases are a piece of art.

I guess it depends on whether you're really traveling light, or don't mind adding a bit of bulk to your camera at the same time giving it a bit of protection.

 

[markgay]

I don't see what all this has to do with the original proposition, which was that to know film technology makes you a better digital photographer.
/T

I just love you guys.

First someone is rapped for making the straightforward point that, film or digital, it's all photography, something that's forgotten by the upgrade-obsessed, 'now' society.

Then the conversation careens off in the direction of Morgans and US regulations.