Medium Format -- Questions...

[Dale D]

I've been thinking about trying medium format for a while. Haven't been actively shopping or even trying to figure out which system to go with. I would be using it strictly for B/W film. Some features that I would want are manual focus only, a built-in meter, and interchangeable lenses. I was in my local camera shop the other night and saw that they have a Mamiya 645 Super on display, mint shape, with 80mm lens for $375.

Some questions... does anyone have experience with this Mamiya 645 system, and any comments regarding the quality and reliability of it? How does it compare to the Pentax 645? I read a recent article about Sebastiao Salgado in which he praises the Pentax 645 lenses for B/W (said they give a nice range of grays). Does anyone have experience in camparing the Mamiya and Pentax lenses for B/W?

Thanks,
Dale

 

[Michael I.]

had one,great system for the price,the color rendition is excellent.
it is a tank,and even if you kill it - the price for another body is 60-100US$
http://sushiisyumi.blogspot.com/search/label/mamiya m645j
this is what i managed to get with it.
if you plan to shoot it handheld - get a grip
has a couple of legendary lenses - the 45/2.8 and 80/1.9 are the ones of the top of my head

 

[Roger Hicks]

My wife had a 645 from new, and sold it when the back started falling open and the counter started sticking... It didn't take that long, either: I doubt she put 2000 rolls though it. A very nice camera, but not as far as I could see built for hard professional use -- though plenty of wedding photographers used them, so maybe she was just unlucky. (I never saw anyone in advertising using them, though).

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Bnack]

When you go to medium format... you'll find that relatively cheap old lenses give you tonality and sharpness you could only dream of in 35mm. I think you'll be amazed at the quality whether you go with Mamiya or Pentax. If your camera shop has it, and it seems like a good deal, I say pull the trigger.

 

[nikon_sam]

I picked up a Mamiya 645 just over a year ago and love it...
I have the 55mm "S" 2.8, 80mm 1.9, 110mm 2.8, 150mm 3.5 & 210mm 4.0

It came with the 80mm, PDS Prism and 120 insert...I replaced the seals when I got it and have been shooting with ever since...
The only possible problem it may have is when I set it @ 1/1000 (shutter speed)
Since, I normally don't shoot that fast it may be off...A top portion of the neg is slightly off compared to the rest of the neg...Maybe I need to shoot more at that speed to get it loosened up...but for now it's not really a big problem...
As far as B&W film goes...That's what I mainly use it for...90% or more of the film that's gone through it has been B&W (Neopan 400)
The 110mm is a very sharp lens...almost a bit scary how sharp it can be...
I'm very happy with this kit and am glad I pulled the trigger on getting it...for now I happy with what I have and not looking to add to it...well maybe a winder, WL Finder or a wider lens if the price is right...
Take time and do some homework on both the Pentax and Mamiya systems...
Price wise right now Mamiya stuff (lenses) can be had for a song...I haven't paid over $95 for any lens and that includes shipping...
Good luck...

 

[oftheherd]

Many people have and like the 645 SLRs. With you list of preferences, your options are less, but have you considered 6x6 or 6x7? Mamiya TLRs have TTL prisms, and Pentax 6x7 has as well. Granted larger cameras, but larger negatives. You may also find some 6x6 SLRs, which some people here may have and chime in to talk about. Good luck on whatever is your choice.

 

[nikon_sam]

I wasn't going to talk about the 6x6 TLR but since it's been brought up I have a Yashicamat 124g and it's been impressing me these last few rolls...
It's a very simple looking camera but the results are wonderful...
I didn't chime in with this one only because the OP was looking for interchangable lenses...

 

[venchka]

It's all good

It's all good

There is a Mamiya 7II rangefinder camera and 80mm lens in the classifieds. You won't find a sharper lens. The extra real estate on a 6x7 negative is very nice indeed. Search the gallery here for work by Todd.Hanz with a Mamiya 7.

I have transparencies taken with a Mamiya TLR (C2 maybe) in 1969. Stunning.

I have a friend who has used Mamiya TLRs since forever including an extended stint on a dig in Peru. They don't break. Stunning results. He added a Bronica and Nikkor lenses to his kit recently. Again stunning. He prints square so he's not loosing any of his negatives.

I watched a lady using a Mamiya 645 autofocus camera with metering prism recently. It seemed like a nice compact system. Larger than a Hasselblad + prism, there was one nearby for instant comparison, and smaller than my Pentax 6x7.

Bottom line: 120 film behind decent lenses, guided by good eyes and developed properly (even in Diafine! 😱 😀) produces stunning results. It's difficult to find a bad medium format camera and lenses.

Good luck!

 

[mbisc]

If you are going to MF for B&W, why stop at 645? Get the biggest negative you can (commonly) get -- i.e. 6x9. If you are worried about size, get an old folder camera. They are plentyful and cheap...

The tonalities you get from 6x9 are wonderful and surprisingly superior to even 645.

Enjoy the journey into MF!

 

[venchka]

What mbisc said.

I alluded to that when I said that 6x7 was an imrovement over the smaller format cameras (6x6 & 6x4.5).

The best MF camera might well be a Graphic of some vintage, I'm partial to Speeds with their focal plane shutters, and a 6x9 roll film back. The supply of lenses is mind boggling. And cheap too. You give up in camera metering. You gain sheet film capability. Consider them folders on steroids.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I have a Mamiya 645 Super that I bought new 15 years ago. It has never given me problems and it has produced most of my best work.

All done with the 645 Super and 80mm f1.9 lens, except the church interior, which was done with the 45mm f2.8.

I love this system. I have the Super body and the Power Drive N. The drive is a big grip that makes it very easy to handhold despite the weight. I have the 45mm, 55mm, 80mm, and 150mm lenses.

Its true that 6x7 gives even nicer quality, but a 6x7 camera is HUGE. The 645 is a great field camera because it is small, light, easy to handhold if needed, and it still completely blows away 35mm. Really, it is night and day. People who say it isn't big enough to improve over 35mm have never shot 645. I can see the difference in a 5x7, and in a 20x30 there's no contest.

 

[sooner]

Chris, thanks for posting those photos with the Mamiya, wow, really nice. I'm glad to hear you defend 645 because I find it to be a big improvement over 35mm, but some on this board are very dismissive of it. 645 also gives you more shots on a roll, enough so you aren't changing film every 5 minutes.

 

[kuzano]

Jump the Super and go to the Pro Mamiya

Jump the Super and go to the Pro Mamiya

The Super was plagued with electronics problems, although most of the ones that failed would have done so by now, most likely. I had a number of the Mamiya 645's prior to the Super. Had a Super and then a few of the 645 Pro's.

The price you see for the Super is not exceptional, so I would not take the risk. Look for a Pro. I eventually moved to the Bronica ETRSi, also 645. The plus for me was that Bronica lenses have leaf shutters, while the Mamiya has focal plane. Distinct advantage goes to the Bronica for flash. The ETRSi body and system is a tad bit smaller than Mamiya, equally reliable and both have excellent image quality.

The really good news is that both Mamiya and Bronica 645 are available in vast numbers and most were fairly well taken care of. Both are rugged and reliable, except for that chronic electronic problem on the Super. I noted that Chris has a Super and has had good service. I, on the other hand, suffered the shutter problem with a Super. That's why I moved to the Pro model, successor to the Super.

By the way, I still shoot the 645 format, or 6X9. I have never really gotten comfortable with square, and 6X7 is pretty close to square as well.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

The Super was plagued with electronics problems, although most of the ones that failed would have done so by now, most likely. I had a number of the Mamiya 645's prior to the Super. Had a Super and then a few of the 645 Pro's.

The price you see for the Super is not exceptional, so I would not take the risk. Look for a Pro. I eventually moved to the Bronica ETRSi, also 645. The plus for me was that Bronica lenses have leaf shutters, while the Mamiya has focal plane. Distinct advantage goes to the Bronica for flash. The ETRSi body and system is a tad bit smaller than Mamiya, equally reliable and both have excellent image quality.

The really good news is that both Mamiya and Bronica 645 are available in vast numbers and most were fairly well taken care of. Both are rugged and reliable, except for that chronic electronic problem on the Super. I noted that Chris has a Super and has had good service. I, on the other hand, suffered the shutter problem with a Super. That's why I moved to the Pro model, successor to the Super.

By the way, I still shoot the 645 format, or 6X9. I have never really gotten comfortable with square, and 6X7 is pretty close to square as well.

I bought my Super after it was discontinued and replaced by the 645 Pro. I bought it new from B&H and got it CHEAP, like half what the Pro cost at the time. Because it was probably one of the last ones made, it likely had all the bugs from the earlier ones fixed. I'd forgotten that some supers had problems since they never affected me. The Pro used is not much more costly, so I'd agree to go for that instead....but my basic defense of 645 cameras still stands. I like them!

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Chris, thanks for posting those photos with the Mamiya, wow, really nice. I'm glad to hear you defend 645 because I find it to be a big improvement over 35mm, but some on this board are very dismissive of it. 645 also gives you more shots on a roll, enough so you aren't changing film every 5 minutes.

Thanks Sooner. I love mine. I also shoot Hasselblad. I sold my old 500C, because I needed money, then a patron gave me a newer 503CX and 3 lenses a couple months later, so I've been using it a lot. I like square format too. I have been going back and forth between the two systems depending on what I am shooting.

 

[kuzano]

I also very much like the 645 format...

I also very much like the 645 format...

I bought my Super after it was discontinued and replaced by the 645 Pro. I bought it new from B&H and got it CHEAP, like half what the Pro cost at the time. Because it was probably one of the last ones made, it likely had all the bugs from the earlier ones fixed.

I just thought I'd mention the Pro over the Super, because I had one of the problem models. I agree that currently the Pro's do not sell for more than the Super, so why take the chance.

I looked at your web site and blog. Nice work and very interesting. Let it not be said that there's nothing to see or record in the Heartland. Like your work Chris.

My current 645 camera is a Fuji GA645Zi, which is also a camera to consider. Some don't like it because of the portrait position of the film over landscape, but the camera has some redeeming features. It is not manual focus however.

My 6X9's are a Fuji G690 with the 100 mm lens and a GSW690III with the 65mm lens. Great for landscapes and when I take two shots overlapped, I use it to create 6X17 stitched together in Photoshop. Camera cost... about 1/3 to 1/4th the price of a 617.

 

[Dale D]

Thanks for all the helpful replies... I was unaware of the electronics issues with the Super, so it's good to be forewarned about thet. Regarding 6x9, I was assuming that the camera would be too large in that format, but I I've never handled a 6x9, so it was just an assumption. Also, my enlarger only goes to 6x7, so I'd need to replace it to accomodate 6x9. Chris, thanks for posting those photos from your 645, they're nice examples.

Regarding leaf shutters, is flash synch the only advantage of focal plane? I won't be shooting with flash, so not sure if there is any benefit?

Dale

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Thanks for all the helpful replies... I was unaware of the electronics issues with the Super, so it's good to be forewarned about thet. Regarding 6x9, I was assuming that the camera would be too large in that format, but I I've never handled a 6x9, so it was just an assumption. Also, my enlarger only goes to 6x7, so I'd need to replace it to accomodate 6x9. Chris, thanks for posting those photos from your 645, they're nice examples.

Regarding leaf shutters, is flash synch the only advantage of focal plane? I won't be shooting with flash, so not sure if there is any benefit?

Dale

Actually leaf shutters are better for flash. The focal plane shutter in a Mamiya 645 syncs at 1/60th. The leaf shutter in a Hasselblad can sync up to 1/500. Mamiya's RB67 and RZ67 have leaf shutters too and go up to 1/300 if I remember right.

The advantages of a focal plane are higher maximum shutter speed. The 645 Super goes up to 1/1000 while leaf shutter max speeds are either 1/300 or 1/500 depending on the camera model. Also leaf shutter SLRs have more time lag between pushing the shutter release and the actual exposure than what you get with a focal plane. Focal plane is better I think for candid work. Note that that only applies to SLRs like the RB67 and the Hasselblad. Leaf shutters in TLRs and Rangefinders are very quick and have less time lag than a focal plane shutter in an SLR because you don't have to wait for the shutter to close and the mirror to raise before the shutter can open again for the exposure.

Another focal plane advantage is an instant return mirror in SLRs like the Mamiya 645 cameras. Hasselblads and Bronica ETRs cameras do not have instant return mirrors....the mirror stays up and the viewfinder black until you wind the film!

 

[Dale D]

Reading through the comments, it occurred to me... someone observed that at $375, the Mamiya 645 SUper with 80mm lens in mint condition is not an exceptional bargain. I would guess that this system must have been around $3,000 new just a few years ago? Pretty amazing to ponder how medium format prices have come down!

Dale

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Reading through the comments, it occurred to me... someone observed that at $375, the Mamiya 645 SUper with 80mm lens in mint condition is not an exceptional bargain. I would guess that this system must have been around $3,000 new just a few years ago? Pretty amazing to ponder how medium format prices have come down!

Dale

The 645 Super was discontinued a rather long time ago. I bought mine new in Feb. 1994 and it had been discontinued in favor of the 645 Pro a couple months earlier. So, an Super will be over 15 years old. They did cost about $2500 for the body, prism, and back when they were the current model, but it wasn't a few yrs ago. The Pro is even somewhat old, as it was replaced several yrs ago by the Pro-TL model which added TTL flash metering.

$375 is a high price.

KEH sells a 645 Pro with Metering prism, 80mm f2.8, power winder, and 120 back for $351 in Bargain condition (what most shops call Excellent!). A 645 Super with the same accessories is $223