Help me with this Zeiss Ikon

[urban_alchemist]

Hi all. As my uncle moves house and clears out his closets, I've come into posession of my grandfather's final camera: a Zeiss Ikon folder that I have no idea about.

Here's a (very bad) photo of it. Any information would be greatly appreciated: what it is, how much it is worth, whether there is anyone in the UK that can clean the glass and service it to bring it back to its original glory...

Thanks in advance...

Julian

 

[sahe69]

Looks like a 6x9 Super Ikonta. If it is, it's certainly worth repairing, at least if you intend to photograph with it. It looks like the bellows may need to be replaced, and probably you need to do a normal CLA as well.

In good condition these are worth a few hundred euros in my experience. However you should expect to spend a couple hundred for repairing it. If there's a lot of fungus or separation in the lens elements you may want to reconsider. Other than that, it should be repairable.

 

[urban_alchemist]

Looks like a 6x9 Super Ikonta. If it is, it's certainly worth repairing, at least if you intend to photograph with it. It looks like the bellows may need to be replaced, and probably you need to do a normal CLA as well.

In good condition these are worth a few hundred euros in my experience. However you should expect to spend a couple hundred for repairing it. If there's a lot of fungus or separation in the lens elements you may want to reconsider. Other than that, it should be repairable.

Thanks for the quick reply. I am not that bothered about how much it is worth - as someone who loves photography, the thought of using my grandfather's pride-and-joy is something that I cannot put a price on.

So, I want to gather as much info as I can on the camera...

It seems to be in very good condition (although there is at best haze, at worst, fungus on the lense) - how much would I be looking at to get it to good-as-new?

Thanks...

 

[literiter]

It is a Super Ikonta "C" 531/2. I think many of us could comment farther if we could see the lens.

I would not assume that the bellows needs replacement. I acquired three of these same cameras and none required a new bellows. (so far)

If it is a Opton Tessar it is likely single coated and cleaning these thing can be tricky because the inner optical coatings are very fragile and must be cleaned with utmost care.

If it does not have "Opton" on the lens then it will not be coated and cleaning is not quite as tricky.

These cameras are generally not a difficult repair and when working will blow you away with the quality of the images.

 

[urban_alchemist]

It is a Super Ikonta "C" 531/2. I think many of us could comment farther if we could see the lens.

I would not assume that the bellows needs replacement. I acquired three of these same cameras and none required a new bellows. (so far)

If it is a Opton Tessar it is likely single coated and cleaning these thing can be tricky because the inner optical coatings are very fragile and must be cleaned with utmost care.

If it does not have "Opton" on the lens then it will not be coated and cleaning is not quite as tricky.

These cameras are generally not a difficult repair and when working will blow you away with the quality of the images.

Thanks for that wealth of information! The camera's presently not with me, but I'll take some photos of the lense as soon as I can.

Quick question: does anyone know of a reputable, trustworthy repairer in the UK as, considering the sentimental value of the camera, I don't want to just entrust it to anyone...

 

[SCOTFORTHLAD]

Hi Julian,
Try Leslie Gilmore in Belfast for the Service work.He is A1 in my experience.He lists on Ebay/UK as Beedhams,so you could contact him that way.
Brian.

 

[D.O'K.]

I'd give Ed Troszka of Leicester a strong recommendation. He's a specialist Zeiss Ikon repairer and his work is first class (not just my experience: I've only ever read praise from others too).

Sorry I can't remember his telephone number/e-mail address but they're at home and I can post them this evening.

Regards,
D.

 

[urban_alchemist]

Thanks Scotforthlad and D.O'K...

D.O'K - I'd very much appreciate the details; I'm back in the England next week and would like to contact him then...

 

[murpograph]

I'm with "literiter". Bellows of the Super Ikonta are very well made and seldom need repair or replacement. The leaf-shutter will have to be cleaned and adjusted. The rangefinder is normally in good order if nobody tried to close the lid having the lensholder for the rangefinder beside the lens in working position. The lenses are very good even the "Novar-Anastigmat" which has been cheaper (and still is). However most of them who could afford a Super Ikonta were in a position and willing to buy the Tessar-lens.

However there are 2 weak points: The finder is more or less a searcher and you will quite often have a problem with the plainness of the film. Therefore you should stop down to f 8. Large and good negs will be your reward.

Regarding the price I've watched results on ebay and think that this camera with Tessar in good condition will cost not more than 200 € and with Novar not more than 100 €.

A complete CLA including shutter and rangefinder shouldn't cost more than 150 €.

Regards
U.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Has anyone here, other than myself and sahe 69, actually looked at the bellows in the photo? They are badly misfolded and it looks to me like he has at least one big seperation. I think a bellows replacement is very definitely in the cards. Even if they are still light tight, that seperation probably means something is sticking out inside into the light path.

Urban alchemist, if you will measure the bellows, and send me a private message, I will compare the measurements with my spare bellows and see if I have one in that size. If I do, I'll send it to you for what it cost me (about $10) plus postage.

Edit: As for the glass, if it is still at the point where it just looks fogged, then even if it is fungus, it probably has not gone far enough that it can't be cleaned. You'll need to use a 50/50 mix of supermarket ammonia and drugstore hydrogen peroxide. Use it on a cotton swab and the stuff will just melt off of the glass. More likely, it is a fog of oil though, and will come off with naptha.

 

[D.O'K.]

Sorry for the delay in posting Ed Troszka's details, which are:


Ed Troszka/Euro Photographic Services
150 Harrowgate Drive,
Birstall,
Leicester LE4 3GP.
tel:- 0116 2674247.

He's very happy to chat over the telephone about a proposed repair and/or to follow up with an estimate of costs after examining the camera.

Hope this helps--
D.

 

[chippy]

Has anyone here, other than myself and sahe 69, actually looked at the bellows in the photo? They are badly misfolded and it looks to me like he has at least one big seperation. I think a bellows replacement is very definitely in the cards. Even if they are still light tight, that seperation probably means something is sticking out inside into the light path.

.

indeed, i thought it was obvious and saw it straight off. i was waiting for, and rather hoping Julian was going to post a sharper picture to get a better look at the lens and the finder ect. its a bit difficult to see but there seems to there may be reasonable amount of silvering left on the finder (which makes it a very good one, still kinda usable with out it though), even more difficult to see the rear of the finder to how yellow it may be or not

i would also disagree with the need to stop down to f8 as well..honestly i am starting to think it is one of those urban internet myths that 6x9s have film flatness problems (unless there is something wrong with the camera)...i have this model ikonta (and dozens of other 6x9s) as well and have had no film flatness problems...wind on just prior to shooting is the obvious precaution to take so the film is taught and flat

 

[urban_alchemist]

Thanks all for the info - especially D.O'K for the contact info and FallisPhoto for the kind offer (which I will definitely take you up on).

Sorry for not posting additional (and better) photos, but the camera is temporarily at my parents for safe-keeping. I should be heading there either today or tomorrow and will take photos then to post.

@Chippy: The finder (one on top) was quite yellow, but the rangefinder seemed to work smooth and fine.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Thanks all for the info - especially D.O'K for the contact info and FallisPhoto for the kind offer (which I will definitely take you up on).

No problem. When "frendakfunari" was selling bellows on ebay, at 2 and 3 for $10, I bought a lot of them.

@Chippy: The finder (one on top) was quite yellow, but the rangefinder seemed to work smooth and fine.

Assuming that you are all talking about the small viewfinder above the lens, then if Andrew doesn't have the answer to this one, I do. Get a tube of toothpaste, deposit a small dab on your finger, and rub, rub, rub at that yellow viewfinder lens. It will turn bright and clear and (since it is not a precision lens -- it just shows you where the lens is pointed) it won't hurt anything. This is an old watchmaker's trick for brightening the yellowing crystals on vintage watches. I do this as a matter of routine with my box cameras and most of my folders. Here is an Ansco Shur Shot with viewfinder lenses big enough to show the effect:

 

[chippy]

Charles , i mean the veiwfinder (albada viewfinder) on the top of the camera that pops up when the button is pushed to unfold the camera.

it is made up of two 'lens' pieces, the front piece in the front frame is concave at the rear and its surface silver mirrored with a % of reflectivly. because it has a curved rear surface it cant be replaced with new flat mirror. i havnt heard of anyone having them re-silvered yet.

its mirrored so it picks up the reflection of the rear veiwfinder element, which is convex on the front and has frame lines for 6x9 and 6x4.5 painted (or some such thing) on the rear of it. i think from memory it is made of plastic, and this is the reason they discolour (yellow).

these viewfindas are somewhat of a problem to restore, it is a two part problem with sometimes the lens in the front frame has lost its silvering for the mirror and the rear lens part in the rear frame turns yellow, sometimes to the point where its too dark to look through. i havnt tried grinding/polishing a new surface on mine to see if that works (i vaugly have heard of others trying with no success though, its possible the yellow colour extends all through the plastic lens) as uniquely mine is quite good. I once considered making or having made some new rear lens parts and then printing the frame lines on it but necessity being the mother of invention, i havnt needed too because mine is ok.


i dont think i have come across anyone that has fixed them fully as yet...

 

[FallisPhoto]

Charles , i mean the veiwfinder (albada viewfinder) on the top of the camera that pops up when the button is pushed to unfold the camera.

it is made up of two 'lens' pieces, the front piece in the front frame is concave at the rear and its surface silver mirrored with a % of reflectivly. because it has a curved rear surface it cant be replaced with new flat mirror. i havnt heard of anyone having them re-silvered yet.

its mirrored so it picks up the reflection of the rear veiwfinder element, which is convex on the front and has frame lines for 6x9 and 6x4.5 painted (or some such thing) on the rear of it. i think from memory it is made of plastic, and this is the reason they discolour (yellow).

these viewfindas are somewhat of a problem to restore, it is a two part problem with sometimes the lens in the front frame has lost its silvering for the mirror and the rear lens part in the rear frame turns yellow, sometimes to the point where its too dark to look through. i havnt tried grinding/polishing a new surface on mine to see if that works (i vaugly have heard of others trying with no success though, its possible the yellow colour extends all through the plastic lens) as uniquely mine is quite good. I once considered making or having made some new rear lens parts and then printing the frame lines on it but necessity being the mother of invention, i havnt needed too because mine is ok.


i dont think i have come across anyone that has fixed them fully as yet...

Well, clear plastic can usually be renewed with the toothpaste trick. The yellow almost never goes all the way through. It is almost always a very thin (albeit tough) film on the surface. It is usually only one or two microns deep. The exception to this is if it has come into contact with motor oil -- that can go pretty deep, given enough time. As for the mirrored parts, do you think those could possibly be fixed with a thin reflective or semireflective window film?

Edit: The Shur Shot in the photo had really grungy yellowed lenses, and some shallow scuff/scratch marks too. All that polished out quite nicely with toothpaste.

 

[chippy]

actualy , that idea of using window reflective film has a small chance of working---you come up with good ideas every now and again eh 😛 thinking outside the box, it is at least worth considering it..

i am not sure how that stuff is normally adheared to the surface? and the other problem i see is the curvature of the front part of the viewfinders rear surface is pretty steep so i can quite see it laying down flat/smooth without cutting out sections so it didnt have folds...if these were overcome (obviously by intricate cutting to shape) then it may make a suitable working fix, not perfect, or a grand restoration, but it may work.....if i had some albada finders that were in poor shape i would definitely investigate it as a possible solution...of course resilvering the lens is ideal but i dont know of a place atm that can (or would) resilver with partial reflective coating

 

[literiter]

I've taken the Albada finders apart on three Super Ikonta Cs. Not hard to do, just use care not to chip the glass on the front element when you remove it from the carrier.
On the 531/2 Ikontas, the front element consists of two pieces of glass cemented together with Canada Balsam. One of the inside surfaces has a semi silvered side which can deteriorate. As well, the Canada Balsam will darken.

The problem can be compounded by the yellowing of the little piece of plastic (probably, nitro cellulose) which has the frame lines. If this is removed the image is only improved slightly, and then of course you've lost the frame lines.

The general consensus, I've seen so far, suggests that there may be no solution to the crappy Albada finders on Super Ikontas. Well, actually.....there is one: replace the finder with the finder from a Moskva II, or first version Moskva IV. They fit, oddly enough, but don't really look right.

 

[literiter]

I have a Zeiss Ikonta with a bellows with nearly identical separation of the leather I see in your photo. I works fine, so far. I've been able to improve cosmetic the situation by carefully refolding the bellows and closing the camera.
I'd not get too worked up about the issue if there are no light leaks. Replacing the bellows gets a little messy. Bellows replacement can be costly, in terms of labor and a good bellows itself is expensive.

If you do decide to replace, make sure you pay the $$ and get a good bellows. There is a British company (that appears to be back in business) "Camera Bellows" www.camerabellows.com who will manufacture a bellows fit for the restoration of a Super Ikonta.

I can't really suggest to you, who would do a good job of replacing the bellows. I would suggest however, that it requires the competant hand of someone who has done the job many times before. ( "Photography on Bald Mountain" comes to mind.)

I've done the job myself and I'll tell you that the opportunity to bugger up the cosmetics and functionality of a really lovely camera presents itself time and time again.

I love working on my old cameras, I've done a few over the years. I believe I know what a good job is. I do not repair cameras for others.

 

[FallisPhoto]

... I do not repair cameras for others.

I do repair cameras for others. However, if we are talking about the specific job of a bellows replacement on a Super Ikonta, I will do my own, but not someone else's. Same with a few other specific cameras. It is a tough and expensive job with a high enough risk factor not to be worth it. On the other hand, there are other cameras I will do bellows replacements for.