Sparrow
Veteran
I’m about to put a modern panchromatic film in a 1930’something Bessa that I just “serviced” will the red window fog it do you think?
Any other advise?
Any other advise?
modern film in a 1930’s Bessa
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Al Kaplan
Veteran
No, it shouldn't. Some inexpensive "modern" cameras still wind "by the number".
Muggins
Junk magnet
If you're worried, put a piece of black insulting - sorry, insulating tape over the window, and only lift it when you wind on.
Apart from a dodgy batch of Efke where ALL the markings on the paper came through on the film, not just the numbers, I've never yet had a problem.
Adrian
Apart from a dodgy batch of Efke where ALL the markings on the paper came through on the film, not just the numbers, I've never yet had a problem.
Adrian
Sparrow
Veteran
Thanks, the last time I used a camera with a red window it was a Kodak, made of Bakelite! so I'm a bit rusty
marke
Well-known
LOL Sounds like me. And old Brownie?
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Not if you are using 120 film. If you are using 220, then yes, it will cause problems.
VictorM.
Well-known
If there's a sliding cover over the red window, only open long enough to wind to the next number. If there isn't a cover, use black tape as a cover. Almost all modern films are (except orthochromatic, of course) panchromatic and sensitive to all colours, including red.
I've had obvious fogging with Zeiss Nettars made in the 1930's. And that was through the backing paper!
I've had obvious fogging with Zeiss Nettars made in the 1930's. And that was through the backing paper!
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chippy
foo was here
mixed veiws it seems-Some people for, some against
I'm with Victor, absoloutly, (although i havnt had light leak through the paper-yet, but then i rarely have ever given it chance to). not including the poor thin backing released on some on the efke, the paper is only designed to stop the light going through it and onto the film (for whatever that safe length of time may be), but its not an all encompassing light trap for the whole back.
the old film used in early cameras wasn't affected by red light. many of the old darkrooms had red coloured material covering windows rather than working in complete dark as is necessary with modern films, for the same reason the cameras used the red windows.
if the camera has a sliding cover its there for that reason-to stop light entering and bouncing around the inside and fogging the film (more impotant as the film speeds increased). Sparrow's bessa sounded like (in the other thread) one that had the knob to close the windows and if you look on the inside of the bessa (and a bunch of other cameras) you can see the paint, whilst it isnt glossy, it isnt exactly matt non reflective finish either. furthermore, there are no light traps behind the pressure plate or red windows (felt or otherwise as on some cameras). the red windows on the 6x9 is are close to the top, not center of the back as 6x6 is (so the light bounces around behind the pressure plate and off the insides of the back until it gets to the film.
so if the back is exposed to a reasonable amount of light for any lentgh of time you will inevitably, sooner or later get some fogging. it was common instruction of the day to turn your back to the sun or to wind on in the shade, and i think still hear people repeating it nowadays it was so commonly known
i would suggest it is a mixture of circumstances why many people arnt getting film fogging in red window cameras ,modern or box brownies (short answer is freakish luck 😱 because old red window cameras designed for ol ortho film will leak using modern film, without putting tape over the window)
modern ones should have a light trap of some kind, although if we are talking holgas, i hear they are full of light leak occurances, not known how many are from the red windows though,,and any decent camera is going to have a sliding door. people lucky with old box brownies maybe because the inside is flat black cardbourd or they just havnt been exposed to much direct light
I'm with Victor, absoloutly, (although i havnt had light leak through the paper-yet, but then i rarely have ever given it chance to). not including the poor thin backing released on some on the efke, the paper is only designed to stop the light going through it and onto the film (for whatever that safe length of time may be), but its not an all encompassing light trap for the whole back.
the old film used in early cameras wasn't affected by red light. many of the old darkrooms had red coloured material covering windows rather than working in complete dark as is necessary with modern films, for the same reason the cameras used the red windows.
if the camera has a sliding cover its there for that reason-to stop light entering and bouncing around the inside and fogging the film (more impotant as the film speeds increased). Sparrow's bessa sounded like (in the other thread) one that had the knob to close the windows and if you look on the inside of the bessa (and a bunch of other cameras) you can see the paint, whilst it isnt glossy, it isnt exactly matt non reflective finish either. furthermore, there are no light traps behind the pressure plate or red windows (felt or otherwise as on some cameras). the red windows on the 6x9 is are close to the top, not center of the back as 6x6 is (so the light bounces around behind the pressure plate and off the insides of the back until it gets to the film.
so if the back is exposed to a reasonable amount of light for any lentgh of time you will inevitably, sooner or later get some fogging. it was common instruction of the day to turn your back to the sun or to wind on in the shade, and i think still hear people repeating it nowadays it was so commonly known
i would suggest it is a mixture of circumstances why many people arnt getting film fogging in red window cameras ,modern or box brownies (short answer is freakish luck 😱 because old red window cameras designed for ol ortho film will leak using modern film, without putting tape over the window)
modern ones should have a light trap of some kind, although if we are talking holgas, i hear they are full of light leak occurances, not known how many are from the red windows though,,and any decent camera is going to have a sliding door. people lucky with old box brownies maybe because the inside is flat black cardbourd or they just havnt been exposed to much direct light
Sparrow
Veteran
I was about 8, my grandma got a new instamatic she passed one of these to me
127 Brownie
It will be 120, I never use 220 (to much trouble putting it on the spirals) and I’ll tape up the window between shots, I just need a bright day now
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Also, some people repaint their cameras when it is needed, including reflocking the back.
Windscale
Well-known
You should be all right. Many cameras have red windows without covering lids, an example is the Isolette V, and I have quite a few of these. They are designed that way. So, good ahead and shoot.
uhligfd
Well-known
I use a modern wooden camera (pinhole) with that red numbers window of old. On negative color film (120) there is no harm from it, why on B+W there could be is beyond me ...
FallisPhoto
Veteran
That must have been a bad batch. I've used a lot of Efke, in several red window cameras, and I've never had that problem.
nico
Well-known
Our fellow member Lucian already tried with, imho, very good results; here te link to his Rff photo gallery:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5093
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5093
chippy
foo was here
must of been...i bought some 127 recently and while i was hunting down the prices i noticed one place had a warnig lable on it saying the window needed to be covered as the numbers burn through.
chippy
foo was here
curious isnt it........but then it was their bottom of the range camera, either that or they placed the sliding cover on the other isolettes 1,2 and 3 mearly as an inconvieniance 🙂
however if you consider the case that the Iso V came in, the flap for closing the case covers the red window, clearly it was designed to do so as a cheap way to cover the window.
same with the early bessa's that didnt have the knob to turn the cover for the red window. the case on those have a flap that must be lifted to read the red window numbers, while it is down it offers some measure of protection
Muggins
Junk magnet
I'm fairly certain there was a thread here about it - the chemistry went doolally with age in a batch, the effects were more than just light leaks. And I had some....
Adrian
fidget
Lemon magnet
My 1935 6x9 rf caught some light ingress from the red window. It has no cover for the window, so I did as suggested here and covered it with black tape.
It still let light in when the window was uncovered, which was getting round the side of the pressure plate from the back to the sides between the spool and plate. I blocked off this light with foam around the plate.
Just uncovering the window to wind on was enough to catch a leak.
It still let light in when the window was uncovered, which was getting round the side of the pressure plate from the back to the sides between the spool and plate. I blocked off this light with foam around the plate.
Just uncovering the window to wind on was enough to catch a leak.
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chippy
foo was here
glad you shared this fidget, i was starting to think the world really is flat or you really dont get sunburnt if you stand in the hot aussie sun all day without taking precautions. 😀
making the the red window or presure plate light tight is often a necessary step, but i was having enough trouble convincing people to use tape 😀
even many of the late twenties and early thirties cameras have a cover slide, but often many of the early cameras dont even have have a pressure plate which apart from film flatness problem increases the likelyhood of film fogging. so too many of the late 30s low end cameras that often dont have a sprung pressure plate (sometimes none at all) which can cause problems. some cameras have velvet around the red window between the back and pressure plate to prevent leaks and in the case of the higher end welta's the edges of the pressure plate were designed to be light tight when the back is closed--even on some of thier earlier cameras
Silva Lining
CanoHasseLeica
In my experience it is wise to take precaustions. I know from having used 1930's Bessas that leaving the red window open to the light can cause fogging. I have also experienced light contamination from a partially closed cover slide on a Bessa RF - The black masking tape approach works OK as does the sensible precaution of winding away from strong light.
The Bessa's are capable of some nice shots - heres one from a 1936 Bessa RF with a f/45 Skopar lens.
And one using the 645 adapter
The Bessa's are capable of some nice shots - heres one from a 1936 Bessa RF with a f/45 Skopar lens.
And one using the 645 adapter
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