Newbie (here and in rangefinders)

[sv1cec]

Dear John,

As I suspected, then, it says nothing about your photography. On a 'photo forum, I don't use my BMW R100RS as an avatar, or my Series III Land Rover, or my Colt National Match. If I used anything, it would be a portrait of me (which accompanies my 'photo and LR columns in magazines).

I'm not trying to be awkward, and I'd hate to make you feel unwelcome here: yours is a great site which I shall explore at far greater length, not least looking for information on my National Match which was bought new by my late father-in-law in about 1935 as far as I know (he is long dead). It's a stunning gun. But if even I can be puzzled at your choice of avatar, others might be downright unhappy.

Tashi delek,

R.

Well, unless there is a forum policy which prohibits such avatars here, I am going to keep it. If there is such a policy against firearms, I am afraid that I'll have to resign from the membership.

As for others feeling unhappy by seeing a gun in my avatar (and I do not mean to be rude here), it's not my problem. It's not an insulting image, it's not porn or anything, so if guns bother some, it's their problem, not mine. Again, I do not want to be rude, and I know I am just a guest here in Stephen's "house", but it's a matter of principle.

Personally, I wouldn't mind at all seeing your RS100 or your Land in your avatar, but that's just me.

 

[DougFord]

Welcome to the forum.
FWIW I find your avatar interesting; reminds me of a line in a movie.
“always remember to put one in the brain”
And if you follow that advice with your photos, they’ll be interesting as well.

 

[Pickett Wilson]

Hey, sv1cec, glad to see you here! I've been to your 1911 site MANY times. Great resource. Have several Colt 1911's, including one my grandfather "liberated" after WWII.

 

[rbiemer]

John,
Welcome aboard! I don't have anything to add to the discussion about the R3M beyond commiserating on how long it will seem before you get your package!
But I have to say, that I have seen lots creepier avatars here at RFF that have nothing to do with firearms.(Nice commander, BTW.) I don't find anything creepy or threatening about an uncocked weapon that's not even pointed at me.
I tend to change my avatar, and usually I use some small part of one of my photos that I think is visually appealing. The one I'm using now is a photo I took of the inside doorknob for the door leading outside from the kitchen I work in. The door is about 1 meter from the stove, the weather out side was cold enough to frost the inside knob while the temp in the kitchen was between 90 and 95 deg.F Outside it was about -25 F.
Rob

 

[sv1cec]

Just to get this discussion back on course, the reason the camera will take so long to reach me, is because of my location, as some of you may know, I live in Athens, Greece.

My initial thought was to order the camera just before my next visit to US, probably next January. However, I was afraid that maybe by that time the 250th Anniversary kits would be all sold out (even though now I know I made a mistake by ordering that kit, I would much prefer the 40mm lens or even better an R2M with a 35mm lens).

I then considered ordering that camera, have it shipped to a friend, who would safe-keep it for me until I come to US. But thanks to a happy coinsidence, some relatives are coming to Greece, from US, next Thursday.

So I called Stephen and had him rush-ship the camera to my relatives, hoping that it will arrive to them in time for their flight. I expect it to be there either today or tomorrow.

That's the reason for the arrival delay.

Thanks to all who welcomed here, and who answered my newbie questions, even if they had some objections about my avatar. I really appreciate your help guys.

Now, if I ever hit the jackpot, I may even get that M5 that I keep dreaming about.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Well, unless there is a forum policy which prohibits such avatars here, I am going to keep it. If there is such a policy against firearms, I am afraid that I'll have to resign from the membership.

Dear John,

Sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression at all, and as far as I know, no, there is no such policy. And, as I say, your 1911 site is wonderful.

And I completely agree with others who are puzzled by (or simply dislike) quite a few of the avatars people use. There are good ones too, though. The best for me, by a long way, are Richard Jenkinson's brilliant self-portraits.

Returning to the original premise, I was surprised at how poorly Athens was served by camera shops when I was there a decade or more ago; I doubt it's got better since. Thank Heaven for mail-order!

Cheers,

Roger

 

[sv1cec]

No problem.

What I find frustrating is people who are bothered by guns, without considering that some guns are used to save lives. I have a friend whose 60 years old, 100 lbs mother was saved from a couple of low-lives, by drawing her little Taurus revolver in their faces.

Anyway, I think guns is not the topic of this board or of this thread, so let's just put this behind us and move along.

There were some nice camera stores in Athens, but they were all in a small area, downtown (center). And the best were not on street level, so they were not easy to find. Actually, I haven't been in that area for quite some time, so I am not sure if most of these shops exist today.

If all goes as planned, I may go there to get some bulk prices on films etc. I am sure the local stores in this neighborhood would be much more expensive, so it might worth the trouble of facing the traffic and going to the center. If it was not for the twins, I might even consider a small darkroom set-up for B&W.

 

[sv1cec]

The more I read the more I learn and the more convinced I am that the R3M was a bad choice for me.

I learned that Voigtlander has the perfect camera for me, only I didn't know until this morning. It's the R4M, the wide-angle version of the R3M.

For $140 more, I could have the R4M with the 28mm f/2 lens, which I believe is exactly the camera/lens combo I need for the kind of photography I plan to use the Voigtlander for.

Darn, those relatives! If I had some more time to research the issue, I could have made the most appropriate selection. Now, I have to find someone to sell the R3M locally and find a way to get the R4M with the 28mm.

I am totally frustrated with myself.

Oh well, not the first time I buy something and then figure out it isn't what I wanted, LoRL.


Question: Can a 35mm lens be used on the R3M? Can it be used without an external viewfinder? How much wider will the picture on the film be than the image in the viewfinder? What about a 28mm lens?

 

[JFH]

John: A 35mm lens can be used on the R3M, as can any M-mount lens. The deciding factor as to whether it's comfortable for you will probably be whether or not you wear glasses. If you do not wear glasses, you'll likely find that the 35mm lens and the full viewfinder (outside of the 40mm frame lines) work well together. With glasses, this will still work, but you'll probably find yourself searching around more in the frame before you shoot. I wear glasses and use a 35mm with a 40mm external viewfinder (since I also have a 40mm lens) and find the combination works nicely.
A lot of people seem to like the 35mm as their most used lens (see various polls on RFF) as do I. Many just seem to "see" in 35mm terms..

 

[sv1cec]

JFH, that's a relief. I do wear glasses, but I have also ordered a -3 diopter correction lens, so I'll do my usual trick of lifting the glasses on my head and look through the finder without them.

Gosh, I wish I had discovered all those things earlier. Now, I need to find a way to get that lens to Greece.

I see that you have both a 35mm and a 40mm. Since I am getting the 50mm with the camera, do you think the 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar P Type II would be a good choice? I do not need the faster ones (f/1.4 or f/1.2) and these lenses are too expensive for me right now. Also, do you know if the 35mm f/2.5 Skopar is a collapsible lens or not?

 

[JFH]

John: Bear in mind that I'm a newbie here too.. see low post number under my avatar... and am also relatively new to rangefinders as well... Just so you know that I'm no expert. I've slept in a Holiday Inn express once or twice too, just not last night..🙂

The 35/2.5 Color skopar P II apparently is not a collapsible lens... It also looks nice and small which should travel and carry well, and I believe it's gotten some good writeups here as well. You might also want to look at the 40 / 1.4 Nokton MC for only $50 more. I like mine, it's a nice sharp lens, although (and this is hard for me to describe exactly except to say "you know it when you see it") it "draws" differently from my Zeiss lenses. There really isn't too much difference between the 35 and 40mm focal lengths.. a few footsteps worth of "zoom with your feet" for many shots. Since you have a 50mm though, it IS a bit close to that, so maybe a 35 would suit you better. Or maybe try both.. See "GAS" below.

BTW, you may know this already, but the Zeiss lenses and the Voigtlanders are both made at the same Cosina factory in Japan... But they ARE different lenses. And since you seem to want to follow this forum, you might as well know what GAS means.... "Gear Acquisition Syndrome." Being a gun person, I'm sure you can appreciate the irony, since I know you've already experienced it. And see, you haven't even gotten the new camera yet and still you're planning to get another lens.

I'm sure you'll enjoy your R3. I know I've had a ball with mine. It's not a Leica and really isn't meant to be, but I've found a very tolerable comfort level to using mine and it has worked very well for me. Being very handy to carry around, it's usually the camera I take with me on trips and outings. One of the greatest things about this system in general is the vast number of lenses from different eras and manufacturers that interchange on the same body. No SLR system can equal it for sure.

 

[sv1cec]

You do understand me, don't you? LoRL!!

You see, I was pressed to get the Voigt in a hurry, there are some relatives who are coming here next week, so it was a unique opportunity for me, to have them bring me the camera. So I got what I thought it was best, to cover my desire for a 35mm rangefinder camera (some years ago, I almost got myself a Leica M5, from Frankfurt airport, I still regret it that I didn't max my credit card at that time).

I knew from the beginning what I wanted that camera for, but I was not familiar with the details, so the more I learned the more I became aware that a wide-angle lens would be more suitable for what I wanted to do. But then I realized that the R3M didn't have the framelines for the 35mm or anything wider.

So now, I am doing some "damage control", making the best of what I ordered. And I think the 35mm is a worthwhile investment. I won't order it right now, I'll wait until the camera is here and I collect some miles behind it, so to speak, to see what I like and what I do not. I may eventually find that the 50mm is OK (although I hate the way it extends, leaving a metal tube between its two parts, but that's not very important). Then I'll decide.

The 40 would be a good alternative, if I was ordering it now, but since I have the 50mm the 40mm is a bit too close, hense the desire for the 35mm one.

As for the GAS, well, you should know that I definitely suffer from it. Why else would someone order a complete Nikon F2A kit with two lenses and a motor drive, together with that Voigt, if he didn't suffer from GAS?? 🙂 😀 😛

Thanks for your time amigo, much appreciated.

 

[JFH]

John: One more thing... file this under "GAS, but useful." Call or email Stephen and have him put one.. or two in case you lose the first one.. of the Abrahamsson "Mini soft release" buttons in an envelope and air mail them to you.. This makes the shutter release soooo much nicer. Some folks say they can hand hold the camera a couple of speeds / stops slower. It's going to be the best 15 bucks you spend on the camera...

In M1911 terms, It's a trigger job in an envelope....😀

 

[Doug]

We've had GAS defined, but it seems you're now facing an early bout of LBA (Lens Buying Addiction). 🙂 Welcome to RFF... The R3A is a fine choice for the normal and longer lenses, and many love it for the life-size viewfinder. As you've now discovered, the R4A is the companion for short lenses, and indeed uniquely so in the market. But, you still might consider a 28mm Ultron for the R3A through the addition of an accessory 28mm viewfinder. These are great to use because the view is large and bright.

I like the 28mm as a partner with the 50mm, so a top-mounted 28 viewfinder might well serve to tide you over until you determine future choices, R4A or whatever. And indeed the 28 on an R4A is a great combination, as great as the 50mm on an R3A... 😀

 

[sv1cec]

As you've now discovered, the R4A is the companion for short lenses, and indeed uniquely so in the market. But, you still might consider a 28mm Ultron for the R3A through the addition of an accessory 28mm viewfinder. These are great to use because the view is large and bright.

I would love to get the 28mm f/2 Ultron, but if you add the price of the lens, together with that of the viewfinder, you are looking at something around 750$. That's way too much for me, at this moment.

I was thinking to start with a 35mm f/2.5 (or even the f/1.4 one), hoping that I can use it without an external viewfinder. It appears that the internal viewfinder (without using the brightlines) should cover the exact area of the 35mm lens. The problem is that I won't be able to know for sure, without trying such a lens on the camera and I seriously doubt if there is any shop in Greece stocking the Voigts.

John: One more thing... file this under "GAS, but useful." Call or email Stephen and have him put one.. or two in case you lose the first one.. of the Abrahamsson "Mini soft release" buttons in an envelope and air mail them to you.. This makes the shutter release soooo much nicer. Some folks say they can hand hold the camera a couple of speeds / stops slower. It's going to be the best 15 bucks you spend on the camera...

There are several things that I would like Stephen to send me. I am still not sure if he has included a camera case with my order, he said he did in an email, but the person who took the camera out of the shipping box said that she didn't find any. I can't fully trust her, since she is not too technically-oriented, so I can't say anything until everything arrives in my hands.

In addition to the mini soft release, I think I would like to have one of those "side grips" that look like a winder and allow you a better purchase of the camera.

We'll see how it goes, after I have the chance to play a little with the R3M. Something tells me I'll be spending more money Monday morning.

 

[Doug]

In addition to the mini soft release, I think I would like to have one of those "side grips" that look like a winder and allow you a better purchase of the camera.

I like the grip, and similar products for other cameras, as they give a more secure hold on the body. Further, they sometimes include a lower strap lug allowing vertical carry over the right shoulder, worth the cost right there IMO. 🙂
I don't hear many criticisms of the soft releases, maybe everyone else likes them, but I don't. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[sv1cec]

I like the grip, and similar products for other cameras, as they give a more secure hold on the body. Further, they sometimes include a lower strap lug allowing vertical carry over the right shoulder, worth the cost right there IMO. 🙂
I don't hear many criticisms of the soft releases, maybe everyone else likes them, but I don't. I'll just leave it at that.

Oh well, at 15$ it's not that expensive, I'll get one just to try it.

By the way, lovely cat in your avatar!

 

[davelrods]

I have the R4a and it is my understanding it has the largest viewfinder, with bright lines out at the edges of the viewfinder for 21mm. Meaning the full frame view in the viewfinder will cover what a 21mm lens approximately covers. I use a 35mm lens mostly and the frame for 35mm is a nice size for me with eye glasses since it is hard for me to see the whole viewfinder frame.

It seems to me that the angle of view of your viewfinder is such that that 40mm fills the whole frame, so if you can use it you will see that basic field of view for the whole frame and longer lenses will be correspondingly smaller. To use a lens wider than 40mm will mean you will not see what the edges of your shots will give you. They will not be show in the frame. In my way of thinking, the most versatile viewfinder is the one that affords the widest view, but I use mostly wide angle lenses. If I used mostly lenses 50mm and longer then I would want a narrower viewfinder to give me a more accurate view of what I'm getting. Having used DSLR's and SLR's for such a long time, I think the rangefinder viewfinder, though bright and clear, at best is just a guess of what you are really getting.

 

[sv1cec]

From what I've read (and I stress the word "read") the brightlines for the 40mm are a little further in than the border of the viewfinder on the R3M. The 40mm lens has an angle of view of 56 degrees, while the 35mm one has an angle of 63 degrees. I am assuming (and I stress the word "assuming") that the 35mm difference of 7 degrees will be enough to cover the size difference between the 40mm lines and the edge of the viewfinder. Again, there is a lot of uncertainty in this, and as I said before, for the shooting I want to do with the Voigt, I might be better off buying the R4M or even the R4A. Unfortunately, this is now a done deal, so I guess I'll either have to live with the 50 mm lens (if it was good enough for H.C. Bresson..... it should be OK for me too) or I'll have to figure something.

An option would be to get the 28mm lens together with the small external viewfinder, but using the camera in this way is (I believe) more cumbersome. Frame with the external viewfinder, focus with the internal one, I do not fancy that.

Oh well, one more day and I'll have it in my hands. Then, I'll be able to judge if the standard configuration is convenient or not.

By the way, I want to thank all those who participated in this discussion. Your insight has been greatly appreciated by this newbie.

 

[sv1cec]

Gentlefolks, I am eventually the happy owner of the Voigtlander 250 Anniversary R3M with the 50 mm f/2 Heliar lens!

Hurrayyyyyy.

Some comments from the first familiarization moments.

1. The camera seems to be very well made. Everything works as it should, and the mechanical sounds are reassuringly soft but precise. The shutter release is smooth with manageable pressure. The way the rewind knob is designed is just ingenious.

2. The rangefinder will take me at least a year to get used to, if ever. OK, I am spoiled by the SLRs, so this one is strange. The LEDs used for the photometer at the bottom of the rangefinder leave a lot to be desired. As expected, I hate the way the lens extends, leaving a shiny tube visible between its rear and its forward parts.

3. Oh, did I tell you I hate the way the lens extends, leaving a shiny tube visible between its rear and forward part?

4. Another thing that will take me a year to get used to, is the lens controls. The aperture is at the front of the lens while the focusing ring is towards the rear. While this could be easy to master, the worst problem is that right in front of the aperture ring, there is another knurled ring, which you use to twist the lens in the locked position, when you extend it. Well, my fingers always grab that ring instead of the aperture ring. Frustrating.

5. Operating-wise, I'll have to relearn to use the controls of the camera, instead of relying on automation. First four shots of my kids will be one stop overexposed due to me forgetting to set the ISO setting, LoRL.

6. I am sure Cosina could use something better than two key-rings for the neck strap. These look cheap and make the camera look cheap. Thank God, I have some Nikon triangular eyelets I hope I can use. The same is true about the strap that came with the camera, it may be the 250th Ann. edition, but the neck strap doesn't even say "Voigtlaender".

7. I do not see me using that camera for the photography I planned to. The Nikon D80 is much more convenient for fast, brain-less, action photography than this one. I know it's too early to tell, but with the difficulty I currently have checking the viewfinder and the photometer, and me always mixing up the lens controls, it takes me for ever to compose and take a picture. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not ideal for quick shooting pictures.

8. Did I tell you how much I hate the way the lens extends, leaving a shiny tube visible between its rear and forward part? 🙂 😀

9. Voigtlander should edit its instructions manual for this camera. In the photometer section, where it says that if the -2 and the O are flashing, then the picture is under exposed by more than 2 stops, they should add "or the lens cap is on the lens", LoRL for some minutes, I was sure that the photometer was damaged.

Overall, I am not thrilled with the R3M. It's definitely not due to the camera, I guess that's how all rangefinders work. It's just that I was expecting more. I was expecting a more "Woawww" feeling. Instead, I was left with a "OK, that's it?" one.

For its price (close to $1,000), I could have bought a used Nikon SLR body, like an FM or an FE, which are almost as small as the R3M, plus at least 3 Nikkor AI lenses, which I could also use with my F2A.

I just hope it will grow on me, with usage. Otherwise, I do not see it staying with me for long.