paul beard
Member
OK, I have successfully transplanted a shutter crate from a working FED 4 into a FED 3 (the fit was fine: I suspect there wasn't a big change in that component set as the models evolved). Everything seems to be going together, the selector is in the shutter drum, the front curtain actuator rod is in place.
So how do I actually get the shutter under tension and, you know, make it work? As I said, the shutter mechanism is fine and best I can tell, everything is working. The main problem that I had with the original shutter crate and now with this one is I don't see the the winder's motion get to the shutter drum. The gears all turn happily. The winder spool (the one with teeth) turns a limited amount, as I think it should, but the winder happily spins.
:bang:
The FED 3 came to me with complaints of a non-working shutter but it wasn't obvious why it wasn't working. The curtains were in rough shape, glue-wise, which is one of the reasons I was willing to swap in the known-good one.
So how do I actually get the shutter under tension and, you know, make it work? As I said, the shutter mechanism is fine and best I can tell, everything is working. The main problem that I had with the original shutter crate and now with this one is I don't see the the winder's motion get to the shutter drum. The gears all turn happily. The winder spool (the one with teeth) turns a limited amount, as I think it should, but the winder happily spins.
:bang:
The FED 3 came to me with complaints of a non-working shutter but it wasn't obvious why it wasn't working. The curtains were in rough shape, glue-wise, which is one of the reasons I was willing to swap in the known-good one.
Spyderman
Well-known
Rewind switch engaged ? Try turn the collar around the shutter release counter clockwise. this should connect the advance mechanism with the shutter curtains.
However you might need to re-set shutter curtain tension...
Take a look at some of the sticky threads in the Russian RF section, and also jay.fedka.com and http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-27.html
However you might need to re-set shutter curtain tension...
Take a look at some of the sticky threads in the Russian RF section, and also jay.fedka.com and http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-27.html
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paul beard
Member
Nope, I've checked the rewind switch as best I can determine. Shutter curtain tension sounds like what I am looking for. Thanks.
paul beard
Member
OK, after further fiddling and re-examining my work, I have curtain movement via the shutter speed shaft, so those are connected. My problem seems to be the linkage of the shutter release and the winder, including but not limited to the restrictor gear. Not sure how that goes back in or why there is no movement against it when I use the winder. All the gears and wheels turn as they should (I think). But the winder never stops [clue?].
fidget
Lemon magnet
If this helps?
The winder is directly geared to the sprocket shaft. When wound on the sprocket shaft should always turn.
Here's a pic of a FED 2, but they are all pretty much the same.
Notice that the bottom of the sprocket shaft has a pin in it which engages or pushes against a pin on a short shaft or disc at the bottom. When winding, these should be engaged as you see above. If the shutter is pressed these are pulled apart. They are also pulled apart when the rewind collar is down. In fact the rewind collar does exactly the same as the button. Like this....
So when engaged, turning the winder (or lever etc..) should turn the sprocket shaft, which should turn the bottom shaft, which has a cog on it's bottom which turns a further cog (this is usually the big one you can see through the hole if the cover is removed, and this one <IIRC> is the one which has a channel machined into it and sits on a peg. This is what gives the winder and curtains their end stops ). This cog then drives the last cog which is directly on the shaft for one of the curtains, the other being driven of this shaft.
At least as far as I can remember.
Is this all meshed and turning on yours?
It's the bigger cog which stops the winding when (hopefully) the curtains are cocked and then stops curtains in the right position when released. Hope you've got one in yours........
The winder is directly geared to the sprocket shaft. When wound on the sprocket shaft should always turn.
Here's a pic of a FED 2, but they are all pretty much the same.
Notice that the bottom of the sprocket shaft has a pin in it which engages or pushes against a pin on a short shaft or disc at the bottom. When winding, these should be engaged as you see above. If the shutter is pressed these are pulled apart. They are also pulled apart when the rewind collar is down. In fact the rewind collar does exactly the same as the button. Like this....
So when engaged, turning the winder (or lever etc..) should turn the sprocket shaft, which should turn the bottom shaft, which has a cog on it's bottom which turns a further cog (this is usually the big one you can see through the hole if the cover is removed, and this one <IIRC> is the one which has a channel machined into it and sits on a peg. This is what gives the winder and curtains their end stops ). This cog then drives the last cog which is directly on the shaft for one of the curtains, the other being driven of this shaft.
At least as far as I can remember.
Is this all meshed and turning on yours?
It's the bigger cog which stops the winding when (hopefully) the curtains are cocked and then stops curtains in the right position when released. Hope you've got one in yours........
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paul beard
Member
OK, this is reassuring. I have all the parts and they are in the right places, except for the restrictor gear (the one with the two holes and the channel). I have it, I just don't get any activity transferred from the bottom of the shutter release shaft to the shutter drum. I can take it out and see the gear at the bottom of the shaft turning but I don't see how to engage it.
fidget
Lemon magnet
I'm a bit puzzled. Is the restrictor cog not in the camera?
The gear at the bottom of the sprocket shaft (incorporates the shutter release shaft) is turning?
The gear at the bottom of the curtain shaft is not meshing with anything, so there's nothing to turn it?
can you post photos?
paul beard
Member
OK, some pictures. These digital cameras have their uses ;-)
OK, some pictures. These digital cameras have their uses ;-)
I have attached some pix of the bottom of the shutter-release shaft, the place where the restrictor gear would go (yes, I have it but don't quite know how it goes in and I wonder if I am missing some stuff around it), and the top of the camera body.
I can put the gear in but if I do, nothing happens. The winder can be cranked, but the shutter drum never sees any of that motion ;-)
OK, some pictures. These digital cameras have their uses ;-)
I have attached some pix of the bottom of the shutter-release shaft, the place where the restrictor gear would go (yes, I have it but don't quite know how it goes in and I wonder if I am missing some stuff around it), and the top of the camera body.
I can put the gear in but if I do, nothing happens. The winder can be cranked, but the shutter drum never sees any of that motion ;-)
Attachments
fidget
Lemon magnet
When it's in, it's got to mesh with the both the other cogs in there. If it does and still you get winder motion but no shutter motion, check that the all the cogs turn.
got the pin/screw in that locks the curtain drum to the shaft?
There is yet lots of fun to be had in trying to get the restrictor gear hitting its end stops at the right time, in sequence with the curtains.
got the pin/screw in that locks the curtain drum to the shaft?
There is yet lots of fun to be had in trying to get the restrictor gear hitting its end stops at the right time, in sequence with the curtains.
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fidget
Lemon magnet
Hi, I just re-read your post and wonder if you meant that you're not sure if you (also) have some parts missing from the top end of the shutter mechs?
(apart from not having the restrictor gear fitted)
(apart from not having the restrictor gear fitted)
paul beard
Member
Everything turns, up to the restrictor.
Yes, I have the screw (you should be able to see it in one of the pix). If I could get it to work at all, wrong as it might be, I'd feel like I was making progress ;-)
As to your other question, is there anything else to go in? the other specimens I have -- a 4 and a 5 -- have some little hook that goes into the restrictor which faces the opposite way (the channel faces down). Is there anything else I need to be concerned with? Anyone have a 3 they can open and photograph?
fidget
Lemon magnet
Hi Paul, I think that I may have lost the game plan here. If it all turns up to the restrictor gear (which is fitted now, rather than in the junk tray) and the gears mesh: as in mesh teeth with other cogs,....I don't understand (and I'm sure it's a problem of mine..) how it can turn up to the restrictor cog and not turn the restrictor cog itself. Perhaps it's a language thing.
I believe that I may be of no help to you with this problem, but would encourage you open up another of your FSU cams to see how it goes together and works.
I believe that I may be of no help to you with this problem, but would encourage you open up another of your FSU cams to see how it goes together and works.
paul beard
Member
OK, I think I see part of the problem. The cog at the base of the shutter release doesn't really turn with any enthusiasm. As soon as it meets the restrictor, it stops, so that explains why the winding motion never makes it to the shutter drum. I can crank it by hand and see it work but then we have the issues of the correct placement of the restrictor. Or perhaps to put it more precisely, the toothed spool/framecounter doesn't really lock into place as it should. Starting to suspect more stuff is missing than I realized ;-)
If I slide the counter spool down the shaft, the screws will then lock it in place, and things are awfully close to working. But that gap at the top seems wrong as I know it will mess up the film as it gets wound on. The screw is identical to one in my FED 5.
So problem 1 is how to make sure the rewind/frame counter spool does what it's supposed to do, transfer the winding to the restrictor gear and shutter drum. Problem B is how to place the ^&@#$%^ restrictor gear (any hints as to how it goes, relative to the little bump that sticks out of the shutter crate and the machined channel in the gear itself?). Finally, I won't be at all surprised if the shutter and tapes give up after all this. On the upside though, I may be be able to redo the curtains in my FED 4 (ever seen shutter curtains with rust?)
Thanks for your help so far on this.
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fidget
Lemon magnet
The restrictor gear fits with the machined channel over the peg that you see in the hole.
With the curtains in the uncocked position (or at least the first curtain, the second is not directly fixed to the first or the shaft), the gear should be at it's limit in the clockwise direction, on its stop.
It's this gear that sets the start and end positions of the first curtain.
With the curtains in the uncocked position (or at least the first curtain, the second is not directly fixed to the first or the shaft), the gear should be at it's limit in the clockwise direction, on its stop.
It's this gear that sets the start and end positions of the first curtain.
fidget
Lemon magnet
Yer curtains look ugly. Hope they are supple and without pinholes. It would be a shame to do all this work only to find that they need changing (Although you will have learned a great deal about the workings of the FSU).
paul beard
Member
someday all this will be yours, lad / whot? the curtains?!
someday all this will be yours, lad / whot? the curtains?!
Well, those in the picture are from a different FED but after all this faffing about, they may well be due for a refit.
On that note, what material is generally used? I went to a fabric store (of the "if they don't have it, it's not worth bothering with" variety) and they couldn't get their minds off the idea it was a for a camera, insisting I go to a camera shop. If I needed fabric to make a bike pannier, would I go to a bike shop?
OK, where I left this last, the rewind sprocket doesn't lock to the shaft properly, at least not if it's snugged up to the top. If I leave a 1/8 inch gap, it's good. But that will mess up film travel :bang:
What's amiss there?
UPDATE: I think it's pretty close to working [holds breath], thanks to your patience. The winder does it's thing, the shutter release does it's thing. But the shutter isn't really wound, the release is pretty weak. Is that something I adjust with the tension screws or is that outside the range of tolerance there?
As a hint for any other mechanically challenged types, it looks like the restrictor can be placed with the stop visible through the right-hand hole, with the channel running CCW from there to the left-hand hole. Does that jibe with expert opinion?
someday all this will be yours, lad / whot? the curtains?!
Well, those in the picture are from a different FED but after all this faffing about, they may well be due for a refit.
On that note, what material is generally used? I went to a fabric store (of the "if they don't have it, it's not worth bothering with" variety) and they couldn't get their minds off the idea it was a for a camera, insisting I go to a camera shop. If I needed fabric to make a bike pannier, would I go to a bike shop?
OK, where I left this last, the rewind sprocket doesn't lock to the shaft properly, at least not if it's snugged up to the top. If I leave a 1/8 inch gap, it's good. But that will mess up film travel :bang:
What's amiss there?
UPDATE: I think it's pretty close to working [holds breath], thanks to your patience. The winder does it's thing, the shutter release does it's thing. But the shutter isn't really wound, the release is pretty weak. Is that something I adjust with the tension screws or is that outside the range of tolerance there?
As a hint for any other mechanically challenged types, it looks like the restrictor can be placed with the stop visible through the right-hand hole, with the channel running CCW from there to the left-hand hole. Does that jibe with expert opinion?
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fidget
Lemon magnet
I bought a few pairs "ready made" from a Ukrainian seller. I bought a camera also and he was happy to ship the curtains with the cam. Nice curtains too.
Not sure of the spelling here..Blyatnikov ? Still sells on thE bay.
Not sure of the spelling here..Blyatnikov ? Still sells on thE bay.
Blake Werts
Established
Sergey (blyatnikov) has treated me very well with many good FED expericences. I highly recommend him.
Blake
paul beard
Member
I found him but we're not on the same page yet ;-)
So anyway, I'm working through getting the restrictor gear in place. Looks like the shutter does open and close but very gently (not enough tension). The gear doesn't far enough 'round when I wind/cock the shutter. Still having trouble visualizing what's happening behind the gear, ie the relationship between the shutter drum gear, the winder shaft gear, the restrictor and the little nub that seems to want to be in one of the two holes on the restrictor. Any hints, visual aids there?