BillBingham2
Registered User
Wellll......
Wellll......
I would point to two reasons for me at least.
Having been out of work for well over a year even $10 is a lot of money. Heck, $20 gives my family of 4 dinner at Culvers. As I helped get us into this mess I am doing everything I can to get us out.
Second, with respect to time spent on RFF vs shooting. I use it to relax and learn between working on things. It's a LOT more fun than TV. I spend every second shooting when I can, but it's a lot less than I would like. This is a great place to hang out and share.
B2 (;->
Wellll......
I would point to two reasons for me at least.
Having been out of work for well over a year even $10 is a lot of money. Heck, $20 gives my family of 4 dinner at Culvers. As I helped get us into this mess I am doing everything I can to get us out.
Second, with respect to time spent on RFF vs shooting. I use it to relax and learn between working on things. It's a LOT more fun than TV. I spend every second shooting when I can, but it's a lot less than I would like. This is a great place to hang out and share.
B2 (;->
al1966
Feed Your Head
I have to partly agree with roger, some things you have to try for yourself. Being able to get loaners for expensive items would be good. What works for you may not work for me, as to smallish things like hp5 vs tri x well thats got to be a try for yourself. But its when you buy big items (ones that are expensive for you) that it becomes hard. I bought an oly e510 all the advice I got when I was looking for a lighter dslr was too fanboy based. I bought the lightest (have me its important). then the wife had a small windfall and bought me a ricoh gx100 the e510 has hardly been used since. No amount of words could have told me this. But forums and the like can help avoid the realy bad and point you in the right direction. But ultimately there is no substitute for hands on.
Alex
Alex
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Obviously there are wide variations from person to person in the availability of both time and money, and as Mabelsound pointed out, because photography (and writing about photography) is how I earn my living, it is indeed a great deal easier for me: I can beg the loan of some kit, or scrounge a brick of film, and I have the time to shoot and develop.
But sometimes, reading these threads, and putting my two cents in, I am astonished by the incompatibility of the advice. One person loves Tessars of all kinds; another (me) would only give house-room to either the f/6.3 for general use or to a seriously long f/3.5 for portraiture on LF. In fact, there (maybe) is another thread: disappointments.
Faced with such conflicting advice, whom do you believe? Saying 'look at their pictures' is worthless, because there are three factors at work. First, there's the levelling down of monitors, concealing differences in quality. Second, there's the ability of the photographer. And third, there's the fact that some lenses suit some people and not others.
Tashi delek,
R.
But sometimes, reading these threads, and putting my two cents in, I am astonished by the incompatibility of the advice. One person loves Tessars of all kinds; another (me) would only give house-room to either the f/6.3 for general use or to a seriously long f/3.5 for portraiture on LF. In fact, there (maybe) is another thread: disappointments.
Faced with such conflicting advice, whom do you believe? Saying 'look at their pictures' is worthless, because there are three factors at work. First, there's the levelling down of monitors, concealing differences in quality. Second, there's the ability of the photographer. And third, there's the fact that some lenses suit some people and not others.
Tashi delek,
R.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Roger: I wonder if this is not a feature of the Internet: or put another way - free advice is often worth what you pay for it. Then again, as I am sometimes the person giving the advice, maybe I shouldn't be so quick to run it down. Or how about this for a theory: I think that in communities like RFF expertise is a little like the local currency. Folks give their opinions freely because . . .why? social status in the community? A bread-on-the-waters philosophy? Self-conceit that comes from knowing the answer to a question? The pleasure of "hearing" one's own voice? Altruistic desire to help? Misguided urge to spread chestnuts/common knowledge? Desire for distraction from other life tasks? Whatever the motivation, fulfillment of these needs matches nicely with the needs of those looking for information. Conflicting, even contradictory, advice does not surprise me at all -- on the contrary, it suggests a healthy exchange of ideas, no?
Ben Marks
Ben Marks
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Ben,
Exquisitely summarized.
Tashi delek,
R.
Exquisitely summarized.
Tashi delek,
R.
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Late to the party but...
Some questions are better asked, I think.
A while back I asked about delayed processing and got a few good answers and lots of..."other" posts. I could certainly have just shot the 30 or 40 rolls of film this summer, waited til this fall to process and found out it was no problem. Or found out that I had wasted my time, money, and film by not processing as I went along. Not an experiment/risk I wanted to take.
More recently, I've asked about using a broken I61 lens and putting a single element uncoated lens in place of the optics in it. I have very little personal knowledge about this kind of thing and I know there are people here at RFF who have that knowledge and experience. So I asked. And my experiment will be more effective having asked the questions I did.
I suspect a lot of the questions asked here are as much about community building as information, though.
Rob
Some questions are better asked, I think.
A while back I asked about delayed processing and got a few good answers and lots of..."other" posts. I could certainly have just shot the 30 or 40 rolls of film this summer, waited til this fall to process and found out it was no problem. Or found out that I had wasted my time, money, and film by not processing as I went along. Not an experiment/risk I wanted to take.
More recently, I've asked about using a broken I61 lens and putting a single element uncoated lens in place of the optics in it. I have very little personal knowledge about this kind of thing and I know there are people here at RFF who have that knowledge and experience. So I asked. And my experiment will be more effective having asked the questions I did.
I suspect a lot of the questions asked here are as much about community building as information, though.
Rob
JohnTF
Veteran
Roger, Je suis de Normandie?
Well, sometimes.
Crafting a good question or finding a good subject is perhaps an art in itself, and as you are dealing with a diverse group, it is reasonable to expect some, well, a lot, of diversity.
I poorly crafted some questions, i.e. it was not clear and did not express at all what I thought I was getting at. Thread was about two posts before all involved thankfully gave up, somewhat gracefully letting me off the hook.
It happens, if someone does ask a very silly question or is trolling, it often becomes known quickly. It may be rather like having your fly down, sometimes you have black pants and a white shirt, other times it may take longer to discover the error of your ways.
As to experimentation, I suspect we all have our strengths and weaknesses.
I too like Fred Picker's materials, and they provided me with a starting point for a number of experiments. I shot my share of gray scales, and yes, I have played with the pH of developers, but also found that could become the the mother of all displacement of time for more than I have left on Earth. I figured out available light and push developing when I was 15, only to later discover I had duplicated known (obviously not to me) results.
But that telephone with no dial was hardly the information super highway, and the local library had about No books on photo technology, the few with figure studies had their own type of displacement of time.
I was still the only one in a school of 4000 to shoot Tri X at EI 800 in available light with my blindingly fast 2.8 fixed lens Signet 50.
I am also think of the two guys who discovered by long experimentation the laws of inheritance in the early 20th century, then did the research to find that Mendel had done essentially the same 50 years earlier, now what were their names?
Too bad Darwin also did not read Mendel. Research may lead to a better question. Hugo de Vries was one of them, if memory serves me adequately, --he did become well known for other research.
So, while I understand your occasional frustration, it kind of goes with the territory. You certainly do not want to put down someone with a sincere question who may not be at their zenith yet, (and who besides we few are, ;-)) but you also do not want to perhaps prevent them from discovering everything on their own.
The process varies, and determining the entire intent of the questioner is not easy, even when the relationship and familiarity is far deeper than one on a website.
I have seen you carefully get in to a subject and show the thought behind your reasoned conclusion, and then there are simply times when I am stuck between two positions and trust you, for example, to just know.
Sometimes you are even right. ;-)
Now, will those bottle caps on the back of my lenses prevent get the D&** dust off my M8 sensor?
Regards, John
Well, sometimes.
Crafting a good question or finding a good subject is perhaps an art in itself, and as you are dealing with a diverse group, it is reasonable to expect some, well, a lot, of diversity.
I poorly crafted some questions, i.e. it was not clear and did not express at all what I thought I was getting at. Thread was about two posts before all involved thankfully gave up, somewhat gracefully letting me off the hook.
It happens, if someone does ask a very silly question or is trolling, it often becomes known quickly. It may be rather like having your fly down, sometimes you have black pants and a white shirt, other times it may take longer to discover the error of your ways.
As to experimentation, I suspect we all have our strengths and weaknesses.
I too like Fred Picker's materials, and they provided me with a starting point for a number of experiments. I shot my share of gray scales, and yes, I have played with the pH of developers, but also found that could become the the mother of all displacement of time for more than I have left on Earth. I figured out available light and push developing when I was 15, only to later discover I had duplicated known (obviously not to me) results.
But that telephone with no dial was hardly the information super highway, and the local library had about No books on photo technology, the few with figure studies had their own type of displacement of time.
I was still the only one in a school of 4000 to shoot Tri X at EI 800 in available light with my blindingly fast 2.8 fixed lens Signet 50.
I am also think of the two guys who discovered by long experimentation the laws of inheritance in the early 20th century, then did the research to find that Mendel had done essentially the same 50 years earlier, now what were their names?
Too bad Darwin also did not read Mendel. Research may lead to a better question. Hugo de Vries was one of them, if memory serves me adequately, --he did become well known for other research.
So, while I understand your occasional frustration, it kind of goes with the territory. You certainly do not want to put down someone with a sincere question who may not be at their zenith yet, (and who besides we few are, ;-)) but you also do not want to perhaps prevent them from discovering everything on their own.
The process varies, and determining the entire intent of the questioner is not easy, even when the relationship and familiarity is far deeper than one on a website.
I have seen you carefully get in to a subject and show the thought behind your reasoned conclusion, and then there are simply times when I am stuck between two positions and trust you, for example, to just know.
Sometimes you are even right. ;-)
Now, will those bottle caps on the back of my lenses prevent get the D&** dust off my M8 sensor?
Regards, John
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back alley
IMAGES
if there were no questions there would be no forums.
JohnTF
Veteran
Perhaps it could be as the old story about prison jokes, they circulated so often they numbered them.
One inmate would say to another "14" and the rest could say, "that's a good one" and laugh.
OK, a bit over the edge, that was really 15.
Regards, John
Sparrow
Veteran
Personally, I much prefer learning from other peoples mistakes, than repeating them myself
Q; Daddy, Daddy can I play with matches?
A; Experiment son; experiment
Q; Daddy, Daddy can I play with matches?
A; Experiment son; experiment
dave y
Member
Good topic, I always find it strange when someone does ask a question then why is there sometimes 20 answers all saying the same! Surely one answer is enough, why do people feel the need to reply with the same answer that has already been stated.
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JohnTF
Veteran
Inquiry teaching, and learning has its place, and it is part of the process.
I do not regret the development experiments in High School, I guess it kept me away from other evils. ;-) I was pretty naive, but everyone thought I was not taking photos as there was no flash, got some pretty candid shots, and also did not have a decent light meter, there were lots of variables in my experiments. ;-)
But the "Burnt child dreads fire" can be a bit extreme.
Sometimes I do want a quick answer and not a lecture on epistemology?
That said, perhaps my posts are a bit long, figure you guys are deep thinkers and fast readers. ;-)
Regards, John
I do not regret the development experiments in High School, I guess it kept me away from other evils. ;-) I was pretty naive, but everyone thought I was not taking photos as there was no flash, got some pretty candid shots, and also did not have a decent light meter, there were lots of variables in my experiments. ;-)
But the "Burnt child dreads fire" can be a bit extreme.
Sometimes I do want a quick answer and not a lecture on epistemology?
That said, perhaps my posts are a bit long, figure you guys are deep thinkers and fast readers. ;-)
Regards, John
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JohnTF
Veteran
I think I can clean that off for you, just send it along, if I am unsuccessful I may find a replacement.
J
mpve
Member
Agree Roger!
I am working through a lot of fora every day and what strikes me most about RFF is two things:
1) It has the most (and most insane) questions in polls
2) It has millions of questions like: which of these lenses should I buy? Which of these lenses has best quality?
Though I find it, in general, very usefull to have questions like this answered the sheer number of these questions in RFF strike me, every time I logon.
With most of you I am a "gear man". I am buying more and more gear for no rational reason at all. It just feels good. So I understand you all.
But you must also understand that the gear quality is nowadays at such a high level that I can hardly imagine that all of the persons inquiring if the Leica Summarit is better then the Zeiss Biogon may actually see the differences between these two lenses if the results are passed to them without them knowing which picture is made with what lens.
So I second Rogers advice and want to add one to it:
Buy the most expensive gear you want to afford yourself. Make your choice based on the results you can see from that lens on Flickr. You can then at least see how the lens draws. If the lens that draws best in your opinion is actually optically inferior to another lens that must cause no concern as these differences are too small to be visible for all but the most discerning photographer with an immaculate technique from film to photo.
I am working through a lot of fora every day and what strikes me most about RFF is two things:
1) It has the most (and most insane) questions in polls
2) It has millions of questions like: which of these lenses should I buy? Which of these lenses has best quality?
Though I find it, in general, very usefull to have questions like this answered the sheer number of these questions in RFF strike me, every time I logon.
With most of you I am a "gear man". I am buying more and more gear for no rational reason at all. It just feels good. So I understand you all.
But you must also understand that the gear quality is nowadays at such a high level that I can hardly imagine that all of the persons inquiring if the Leica Summarit is better then the Zeiss Biogon may actually see the differences between these two lenses if the results are passed to them without them knowing which picture is made with what lens.
So I second Rogers advice and want to add one to it:
Buy the most expensive gear you want to afford yourself. Make your choice based on the results you can see from that lens on Flickr. You can then at least see how the lens draws. If the lens that draws best in your opinion is actually optically inferior to another lens that must cause no concern as these differences are too small to be visible for all but the most discerning photographer with an immaculate technique from film to photo.
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FPjohn
Well-known
I favour "try it and see". However, when totally clueless, asking a question may save an eternity.
yours
FPJ
yours
FPJ
Chris101
summicronia
Was that Mr. Bic speaking to his son in the late 60s?
maddoc
... likes film again.
Sometimes asking a question helps getting a starting point to look further into the problem. I am scientist and main part of my work is asking questions and finding answers by experiments. However, before doing experiments it is advisable to first check the literature and have a look if the problem in question haven't already been sufficiently addressed.
Asking a question here or in any other forum often ends in a quite off-topic exchange of personal preferences and sometimes also brand-bashing. Amusing to read but not always very helpful for the original poster...
What I want to know most often are informations about unusual development times / developer before I ruin the film my own...
Asking a question here or in any other forum often ends in a quite off-topic exchange of personal preferences and sometimes also brand-bashing. Amusing to read but not always very helpful for the original poster...
What I want to know most often are informations about unusual development times / developer before I ruin the film my own...
Chris101
summicronia
Same thing with scientific literature, no?
maddoc
... likes film again.
mfogiel
Veteran
The lurking activity on RFF is indeed addictive. However, there are many situations, when you have a problem to solve , and are faced with multiple variables at the same time, so here tapping the experience of others can be invaluable, e.g. "I shot a roll of FP4, and my prints suck" - they can suck, because the lens is crappy, because the shutter was too slow, because there was a focus shift or a RF misalignment, because you have exposed incorrectly, developed with the wrong time, or temperature, you did not rinse the film carefully, you did not flatten the negs before scanning, your scanner is not focusing well, or does not have enough resolution, etc, etc...
There is a never ending quest for the perfect "look" of your shots, and this at the least puts together the lens-film-developer combination. One of the best "looks" that I have found, has been on the basis of your advice Roger (many thanks for that), here's a combination of Fomapan 200 @EI 125 in FX39:
And here's my latest favourite combination: Tri X @EI 250 in Prescysol EF:
There is a never ending quest for the perfect "look" of your shots, and this at the least puts together the lens-film-developer combination. One of the best "looks" that I have found, has been on the basis of your advice Roger (many thanks for that), here's a combination of Fomapan 200 @EI 125 in FX39:
And here's my latest favourite combination: Tri X @EI 250 in Prescysol EF:
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