wilonstott
Wil O.
I really need some help on this one. I am graduate student at Middle Tennessee State University. I was snapping some photos in the Library today, and I was harshly informed by a Library worker that I could not take pictures of people without their consent, and then even more harshly informed (yelled at) by the Dean of the Library that if I continued to do so, he would call public safety officers.
I feel like this is bull****. I talked to a few other offices on campus, and finally one of the Deans kept telling me that I was violating 'reasonable expectation of privacy'---in a public place.
Thus, under this guy's understanding, I can't take pictures of anyone on campus, no matter where they are, without consent from the person.
The worst part is, every one I talked to treated me like I was some kind of pervert.
I requested a formal documentation of University policies.
You guys got any advice, and/or resources for when I meet with this guy again?
I feel like this is bull****. I talked to a few other offices on campus, and finally one of the Deans kept telling me that I was violating 'reasonable expectation of privacy'---in a public place.
Thus, under this guy's understanding, I can't take pictures of anyone on campus, no matter where they are, without consent from the person.
The worst part is, every one I talked to treated me like I was some kind of pervert.
I requested a formal documentation of University policies.
You guys got any advice, and/or resources for when I meet with this guy again?
wontonny
Well-known
You're on private property. They're within their rights.
easyrider
Photo addict
They are right
They are right
I do not live in the U.S. but I think they are right. People all over the world are apprehensive about having their photo taken. I know that I am. A lot of crazies out there.
I run a nieghbourhood blog and recently took some shots of guys using a leaf blower from a public street. The guys asked me why I was taking their pic. I explained that it was a very wide shot and their faces would not be seen. On another occasion, some workmen were taking out an old gas station tank. The foreman asked me that I not take face shots of his crew. Of course, i obliged.
I think people working in a library have an expectation of being private. You could ask them if you really needed a library shot but even then the library can object.
They are right
I do not live in the U.S. but I think they are right. People all over the world are apprehensive about having their photo taken. I know that I am. A lot of crazies out there.
I run a nieghbourhood blog and recently took some shots of guys using a leaf blower from a public street. The guys asked me why I was taking their pic. I explained that it was a very wide shot and their faces would not be seen. On another occasion, some workmen were taking out an old gas station tank. The foreman asked me that I not take face shots of his crew. Of course, i obliged.
I think people working in a library have an expectation of being private. You could ask them if you really needed a library shot but even then the library can object.
principe azul
Ian
They're probably banning photography for no good reason, but they can set whatever rules they want. They probably won't let you in if you're not wearing a shirt - why not? harder to conceal books on your way out - so why shouldn't they ban photography?
If you want to carry on the argument and have a project to shoot, why not offer to donate a copy of André Kertész' On Reading?
If you want to carry on the argument and have a project to shoot, why not offer to donate a copy of André Kertész' On Reading?
danmitch
Member
Hi
As others have said, I think the expectation of privacy is reasonable on what is ultimately private property, however it seems you were treated exceptionally harshly. I don't think you have much of an arguement based on rights / legality to photograph BUT advice ... why not go meet and be humble, accept you have done wrong but explain what you are trying to document, take a small portfolio of your images and see if there is some way of photographing on campus in a more controlled environment.
Maybe let a group in one area of the campus know you want to take some pictures, get their (and the Dean's) permission but then take your time, let them get comfortable in what they are doing and get some candid, but permitted pictures that way.
Perhaps carry a small photo book of your work so that if you are challenged when out and about, you can demonstrate what you are up to ...
Hope this helps!
Best - Dan
As others have said, I think the expectation of privacy is reasonable on what is ultimately private property, however it seems you were treated exceptionally harshly. I don't think you have much of an arguement based on rights / legality to photograph BUT advice ... why not go meet and be humble, accept you have done wrong but explain what you are trying to document, take a small portfolio of your images and see if there is some way of photographing on campus in a more controlled environment.
Maybe let a group in one area of the campus know you want to take some pictures, get their (and the Dean's) permission but then take your time, let them get comfortable in what they are doing and get some candid, but permitted pictures that way.
Perhaps carry a small photo book of your work so that if you are challenged when out and about, you can demonstrate what you are up to ...
Hope this helps!
Best - Dan
navilluspm
Well-known
Does the University have an arts program? If so, talk to one of the professors in that program about your dilemma. Also remember, as others have also stated, "You can kill more wasps with honey than with vinegar."
Bob Michaels
nobody special
You did exactly the right thing, if you made your request in writing or by e-mail so there is documentation. Do not let your request slide but push for an answer. If you get no answer in a reasonable time frame, write them back stating you interpret they lack of response as agreement with your position that the library is a public place where there is no expectation of privacy.
Remember, the library is a part of the Tennessee State University system therefore public.
I see where MTSU offers Journalism program within it's school of Mass Communications. It may prove to be very worthwhile to touch base with someone high up in the Journalism school about these freedom of the press issues. While they may not want to become publicly involved, they may offer some very good behind the scenes information and coaching.
While you should not be complacent is exercising your constitutional rights, it is important that you not be a jerk in your actual photography. Simply exercise good judgment.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
If you were to photograph the grounds (building, decor, aisles) you'd probably could invoke the fact that your university is a publicly funded institution. However, when you add people's images, you enter into more complicated terrain.
It has been my policy not to photograph people under a roof, public or otherwise, unless it's an event or a performance and photography is allowed or tolerated.
Now, had you been doing this on the street in front of the library, I'd tell you to go and picket the place, but, from what I know and understand of your case, you may want to visit the dean and apologize. Claim ignorance, artistic delusion, desire to preserve images of this place of knowledge and whatever else you can muster, but try to dispel the notion that you and other photographers are perverts or looking for a fight.
Who knows, you may make a friend there... And friends in high places are always something good in the life of a grad student.
It has been my policy not to photograph people under a roof, public or otherwise, unless it's an event or a performance and photography is allowed or tolerated.
Now, had you been doing this on the street in front of the library, I'd tell you to go and picket the place, but, from what I know and understand of your case, you may want to visit the dean and apologize. Claim ignorance, artistic delusion, desire to preserve images of this place of knowledge and whatever else you can muster, but try to dispel the notion that you and other photographers are perverts or looking for a fight.
Who knows, you may make a friend there...
And friends in high places are always something good in the life of a grad student.dll927
Well-known
Wontonny -- since when is a library at a state university "private Property"? They may have rules, and people have a right to privacy, but the place is hardly private property.
bo_lorentzen
Established
As memphis said, Clearly a somewhat fuzzy line - since pictures are captured all the time with phones etc.
But I suspect part of the policy is that it is a area people have to visit and spend time at if they want to finish their education, weather they want to be photographed or not. So it is a matter of protecting the general user against being photographed in a place they can not "escape" from. in the park the same person can get up and walk away when you break out a camera, but they are stuck in a small area with their books in the library.
Just my 2 cents.
Bo
www.bophoto.zenfolio.com
But I suspect part of the policy is that it is a area people have to visit and spend time at if they want to finish their education, weather they want to be photographed or not. So it is a matter of protecting the general user against being photographed in a place they can not "escape" from. in the park the same person can get up and walk away when you break out a camera, but they are stuck in a small area with their books in the library.
Just my 2 cents.
Bo
www.bophoto.zenfolio.com
Proof that the Leica shutter is far from silent.
oldoc
oldoc
Might I ask the purpose of your photography in the library?
Personal?
Assignment?
Murphreesboro is not exactly a hotbed on anti-government dissent...very conservative.
Personal?
Assignment?
Murphreesboro is not exactly a hotbed on anti-government dissent...very conservative.
ferider
Veteran
Cell phone usage, food, pets, and beverages are not allowed in the library.
The university does have an obligation to protect student privacy. Just saying ....
oldoc
oldoc
NO university protects student privacy.
I agree with my neighbor, Memphis, Screw 'em.
Get a credential, and let 'em mess with the whole student body.
What he was doing was less objectionable than that couple in the back smooching, or the guy smoking in the bathroom...
I agree with my neighbor, Memphis, Screw 'em.
Get a credential, and let 'em mess with the whole student body.
What he was doing was less objectionable than that couple in the back smooching, or the guy smoking in the bathroom...
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Libraries are funny things ... as a kid it was always impressed on me by my peers that this was a place where people talked in hushed voices and indulged in no obtrusive behaviour whatsoever ... the books and the written word ruled!
Campus policy or no campus policy ... take a camera in there and you're messin' with tradition!
Campus policy or no campus policy ... take a camera in there and you're messin' with tradition!
oldoc
oldoc
You're messing with old ladies and their spinster's domain, Keith...
oldoc
oldoc
Bet this crap wouldn't happen in Berkeley, Haahvaad, or Duke....
capitalK
Warrior Poet :P
Might be taking it too far, but you could consult the Tennessee branch of the ACLU.
http://www.aclu.org/affiliates/tennessee.html
This little blurb might be worth looking at. I'm pretty sure they're not talking about rights of photographers, but an argument could be made.
http://www.aclu-tn.org/studentsrights.htm
http://www.aclu.org/affiliates/tennessee.html
This little blurb might be worth looking at. I'm pretty sure they're not talking about rights of photographers, but an argument could be made.
http://www.aclu-tn.org/studentsrights.htm
JBC
Dr Spoke
I think one of the points that is being missed here is that this is not a case of taking photos of a building, or a table, or the books, it is other students. The library is asking you to be respectful of their right to study (something they must do, and have paid to do) in peace and some level of privacy. Seems fair to me.
Those who say 'screw em' are giving poor advice in my opinion. You are taking on, not just the University and library, but the student body and their parents as well.
Personally, I believe the people do have a right to privacy, even if it is not necessarily protected by law or governance. Street & candid photography is a gray area as far as rights go. If we, as photographers, push to far we may well find folks pushing back.
As far as legal issues go public schools, including Universitys are in an interesting position, not fully private, but not public either.
If it is really important to you to photograph people in the library I would suggest that a positive approach as opposed to a confrontational one would be more likely to net you permision to do so. Make it a confrontation, and I am sure you will loose.
Jim Couch
Those who say 'screw em' are giving poor advice in my opinion. You are taking on, not just the University and library, but the student body and their parents as well.
Personally, I believe the people do have a right to privacy, even if it is not necessarily protected by law or governance. Street & candid photography is a gray area as far as rights go. If we, as photographers, push to far we may well find folks pushing back.
As far as legal issues go public schools, including Universitys are in an interesting position, not fully private, but not public either.
If it is really important to you to photograph people in the library I would suggest that a positive approach as opposed to a confrontational one would be more likely to net you permision to do so. Make it a confrontation, and I am sure you will loose.
Jim Couch
Vertigo2020
Member
I believe there may be a Constitutional challenge to the policy. However, keep in mind that the SC has voided some Constitutional rights in an educational setting, e.g. profanity in schools. For example in Cohen v. California the SC established the right to display profane words in public. But, they have also said a student couldn't do the same in a public school. Those types of cases usually dealt with minors though. We've already covered the right to photography in other public places in another thread.
I concur with the suggestion to contact the ACLU.
I concur with the suggestion to contact the ACLU.
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