Trespassing, justified or not?

bmattock said:
I think it's the worst thing ever. I hate the photographs, I don't see the attraction, and as far as I'm concerned, if you ignored 'no trespassing' signs to get in, you're just another petty criminal.

Just my opinion of course. Trying to be tactful whilst telling someone you think what they do is morally bankrupt and ethically reprehensible is a tad difficult. Here's a smiley for you. :D Do as you wish, but if you want opinions, mine is that Urbex people are scum.
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Ah, thats true. One persons view of what is art may be totally different from anothers.

Regarding "Try trespassing at my house" - a persons home, and an abandoned hospital or factory are two totally different things, IMO. Probably not in written law, but I'm pretty sure if an officer catches someone in a lived in home, versus an abandoned factory, and the person seems harmless, the way the officer would treat the two situations would be different - regardless of it being the same written law.
 
Bill, since your house is occupied, "trespassing" would actually be "breaking and entering". A completely different crime.

But do be careful with that loaded gun thing. Even in Arizona, the "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later" state, we require that a person be in fear for their, or another's, life in order to use deadly force. Like if a kitchen knife were found with the decedent's fingerprints on it.
 
'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time'
The question has nothing to do with morality, but you simply need to ask yourself "what is the worst thing that can happen?".
If you can deal with the consequences, then go ahead. In this situation I would be most concerned about rotten floor boards and staircases etc., rather than the authorities. If it is your personal conviction that those photographs are important, and worth taking, then you won't mind a small fine. Think of it as civil disobedience at a public protest. Some causes are worth getting arrested for.

I once followed a local person on a shortcut through a mined area in Sarajevo. That perhaps wasn't smart, but in the circumstance I used my judgement and hoped for the best. That is all you can do in any situation.
 
'Take what you want, and pay for it, saieth the Lord' -- old Spanish proverb.

Are there degrees of trespassing? Of course. Cutting across the corner of someone's field at one extreme; burglary (or worse) at the other.

At the risk of being accused of America-bashing, is there a cultural divide here? Is any of the messages that TRESPASS IS ILLEGAL and WE'RE GONNA SHOOT YOU coming from the European side of the Atlantic? I do not deny that the doctrine of 'reasonable force' has been hopelessly vitiated in English law, but I have certainly read accounts of force being held unreasonable in the United States, such as the orange farmer who was jailed for shooting dead someone who was stealing oranges from his orchard.

And Bill, do you really think Urbex is the worst thing ever? Worse than (say) murder, rape or torture?

There's an extraordinary strand of absolutism here. Like CNNY, I'm a lot more concerned about rotten floors or staircases, collapsing masonry and the like, than with the risk of being sued for trespass, and still less with the risk of being prosecuted for criminal trespass, which is negligible in most of the world.

Cheers,

R.
 
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bmattock said:
Try trespassing at my house.
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Not legally possible. The law makes a clear distinction between B&E and Trespass and in some cases a judge is more likely to give you a disturbing the peace charge instead of a B&E even if the house is domiciled, depending on the circumstances and intentions.

Anyways, even if someone were to 'intrude' upon your home and you shot them and they were unarmed, odds are the law would find against you and force you to pay the medical expenses (unless mortality is involved), even in most states here in the South.

Anyways, an abandoned blighted property is obviously very different from a domiciled abode, surely you know the difference.
 
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In England, Whales and Northern Ireland there is no law of trespass, worst that could happen is a civil order for damage and costs.

So a so “trespass” in a derelict house you would be probably just asked to leave, however the runway at Heathrow could cost one a few quid.

Scotland has different laws, I’m not sure how it stands at the moment, at one time it was much more draconian
 
It seems that in Europe the attituse is a bit more relaxed. Most of the "Don't Do It" comments (but not all) are from US residents, but then that's likely because they'd expect to get shot by some over-zealous citizen or police officer.
You might think about carrying with you some suitable examples of your earlier "industrial archaeology" or examples of the type of project you're attempting. In the event you have to explain yourself you would have some evidence of your true purpose rather than relying solely on your word against the enquirer's imagination.
 
Yes, there are degrees of trespass, as there are degrees of every crime, nearly all of which are recognised by the law. In many cases there would be a public interest defence too - one which, which a little stretching, could apply to your case.

Just up the hill from me is an entertainment complex owned by the US company, Anschutz. There was a backdoors deal sewn up with the UK government to open a casino in the complex, which was widely speculated, and officially denied. My friend exposed the deal - he got in to the site (avoiding security ID-check by yacking on a cell-phone and carrying two slices of buttered toast), found the plans which ID'd the main building as a casino, and the corruption was exposed. This was classic trespass and I applaud it.

I applaud your project too, there's a good argument that it's historically important.

I find Bill's argument sadly depressing. I spend a lot of time in America, often going round dodgy housing projects to interview musicians, and obviously I well remember the time a Korean student was shot dead on New Orleans, because he'd walked up to someone's door and 'looked foreign.' I believed Randy Newman's words in defence of his country, "whose people aren't bad, nor are they mean;" I'm sad there are people proud to earn at least one of those adjectives.

If you get over to London, there's a fascainting, decaying Victorian asylum which housed Charlie Chaplin's mum, and David Bowie's brother. If you fancy exploring it, I'll come with:

http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/projects/ch/websites/urbex/old/index.htm
 
Trespassing is very much a relative concept in Norway. In general everybody is allowed to go pretty much where they like, at least on foot. As long as its not fenced off, and quite often where it is, as the fence itself may be illegal. It's called "allmansretten", which I'm sure my fellow Norwegian RFF member AniMal knows all about. It translates to something like "every man's right (of passage)". It does not however cover entering private buildings. But even that may be allowed if one was to be in dire need of shelter (we live in a fierce country, at least in winter).

Having said that, I'd not be to afraid of entering derelict buildings in Norway, at least if one can do so without breaking anything. You may get chased off, if found out, but prosecuted? i think not.
 
Whatever the likely punishment I simply would not do it. It's a question of respect.

I've always asked permission, and got it. After explaining my intentions I've even been trusted with keys for locked premises.


Sparrow said:
In England, Whales and Northern Ireland there is no law of trespass...
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Save the Wales.:D
 
James D said:
Whatever the likely punishment I simply would not do it. It's a question of respect.

I've always asked permission, and got it. After explaining my intentions I've even been trusted with keys for locked premises.




Save the Wales.:D
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bugger ... :eek:


P.S. Often it’s difficult to tell, in a lot of UK city’s areas that look like public spaces are often privately owned, and many rights of way are unmarked.
 
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James D said:
Whatever the likely punishment I simply would not do it. It's a question of respect.

I've always asked permission, and got it. After explaining my intentions I've even been trusted with keys for locked premises.
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Respect for what?

Edit: Frances just reminded me that we have gone through holes in fences to both the theatre and temple at Lissos (Crete) and a temple of Poseidon in Thessaloniki. We went there with the utmost respect, and even poured a libation to Poseidon himself at his temple (we happened to have a bottle of fizz with us). Before anyone accuses us of desecrating archaeological sites, I'd ask them how many archaeological sites they have visited, and whether they walked only on the turf or stony paths.

Sure, you can often get permission. But often, there's not even anyone to ask.

Cheers,

R.
 
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My feeling is simply if it (trespass or any other action - including shooting somebody just because they are on your property!) is unlawful, if it opens you to civil or criminal liability, don't do it.

Doing unlawful stuff is bad. Bad bad bad!

Obviously I recognize that different nations and cultures treat 'trespass,' land rights, and privacy rights differently. My point of view is from living in DC.
 
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James D said:
Private property and the law.

"Do unto others as you wish they would do unto you" Old proverb.:rolleyes:
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so will you stop parking on public roads when I tell you the law says a road is for “Crossing and re-crossing on lawful business” and nothing in English’s law gives you the right to park your vehicle there?

:)
 
Private property is one of the cornerstones of democratic societies. Lack of respect for the property of others is nothing short of erosion of that stone. Enough of it, and the structure will tumble. Hooligans or artists, being in someone else's property against their permission is the same. One might as well set the place on fire.
 
James D said:
Private property and the law.

"Do unto others as you wish they would do unto you" Old proverb.:rolleyes:
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Such respect can be exaggerated to the point of parody. Do you obey every law, all the time? Have you never gone above the speed limit? Kissed an under-age girl when you were under-age (that's illegal in England now)? As Sir Robert Mark (sometime Chief Constable in London) once said, some laws are passed to please the public, not to be enforced.

And: private property is not an absolute, cf the allmansretten. Still less is it absolute when the 'private' property is to some extent communal, as in a school, a hospital...

As I said before, there is a disturbing thread of absolutism here, or reductio ad absurdum with some pretty absurdist reductions. Surely most people can see the difference between being in someone's house, and being in an abandoned building? Fortunately, even if they can't, the law can.

Of course we all try to do as we would be done by. But that's not actually oustandingly relevant here. I've never abandoned any military barracks, hotels (yes, I shot in an abandoned hotel in Malta), churches, factories, hospitals... Clue: a key word here is abandoned.

Staying with Malta and Gozo, Frances and I have photographed troglodyte houses, early Christian columbaria and rock-cut tombs. Probaby, in one sense, these were private property. When we told the museum about them in Gozo, they were grateful: they can't even keep track of all this stuff.

Cheers,

R.
 
Its often a matter of perspective. As one would expect, a law like the one I mentioned earlier, opens up for a spot of conflict now and then. The owner of the land may not be correct in her interpretation of said law. As probably is the case with other laws elsewhere.
 
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Sparrow said:
so will you stop parking on public roads when I tell you the law says a road is for “Crossing and re-crossing on lawful business” and nothing in English’s law gives you the right to park your vehicle there?

:)
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Dear Stewart,

For that matter, as far as I recall, under English law it is quite common (in fact, I believe, it may even be the norm) for the owner of property fronting upon the road to own the mining and other subsoil rights under the road.

Frances, whom you may know is American, finds it hard to believe the exaggerated respect paid to private property in the United States. There's respect, which is perfectly right and proper, and there's a paranoid belief that every trespasser is out to do something terrible -- even when they might not even be aware that they are trespassing.

And as Frances has just reminded me, all land in the UK is held of the Queen -- nulle terre sans seigneur -- but she's pretty relaxed about it. The Queen, that is not Frances, though come to think of it, Frances is pretty relaxed about it too. The foreshore (the area swept by the tide) is always public, except on some (not all) military bases.

Cheers,

R.
 
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