Grytpype
Well-known
Does anyone have experience of removing the bellows from a Franka Solida (mine is a Solida III)?
It's easy enough at the front - remove the lens/shutter unit, bend a couple of tabs, and the bellows separate from the mount.
At the rear it is clear that the bellows have to come out from the back, and that the gate has to come out, either before, or during, this procedure. At the inner edge of the gate are 10 tabs, 2 each side and 3 top and bottom. These bend back against the rear-most inner folds of the bellows, and obviously hold it to the gate, but do they also retain the gate to the camera body? They will be hard to bend open with the bellows in the body, and even harder to bend closed during re-assembly, and it looks to me like a not-very-positive way of holding the gate to the camera. Much better (and much easier to deal with) would be if the tabs simply held the bellows to the gate, and the gate was held in some other way, but I'm afraid that is probably just wishful thinking! Anyone know the answer?
Thanks,
Steve.
It's easy enough at the front - remove the lens/shutter unit, bend a couple of tabs, and the bellows separate from the mount.
At the rear it is clear that the bellows have to come out from the back, and that the gate has to come out, either before, or during, this procedure. At the inner edge of the gate are 10 tabs, 2 each side and 3 top and bottom. These bend back against the rear-most inner folds of the bellows, and obviously hold it to the gate, but do they also retain the gate to the camera body? They will be hard to bend open with the bellows in the body, and even harder to bend closed during re-assembly, and it looks to me like a not-very-positive way of holding the gate to the camera. Much better (and much easier to deal with) would be if the tabs simply held the bellows to the gate, and the gate was held in some other way, but I'm afraid that is probably just wishful thinking! Anyone know the answer?
Thanks,
Steve.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
I've been collecting vintage cameras for a long time now and have worked on an awful lot of cameras over the years. In most folding cameras, the rear of the bellows is sandwiched between two frame halves. There are a few exceptions to this, like the old Bessa RF (bellows glued in from the front), but it's almost universal. The two frame halves are usually held together by rivets (usually two under the leather/leatherette panels on either side of the lens door). Occasionally, instead of rivets, there will be screws, located inside the film chamber (some of the better Agfas and Kodaks), In no camera worth more than $10 that I am aware of, is the bellows held in by folding tabs. I think you need to look more closely. Are there rivet heads in the bottom of the film chamber? If so, those are what you need to remove.
Grytpype
Well-known
Thanks FallisPhoto. I think you may have set me on the right track. I'll try to describe what I see.
The basic body/chassis is a deep pressing in fairly heavy-gauge steel. The aperture at the back of the pressing is smaller than the folds in the bellows so it covers the rear-most folds. There is a thinner-gauge steel pressing which forms the top-plate and bottom-plate and the sections either side of the door. The film gate, with rollers attached, is a separate piece, which appears to rest on the back either of this thin section, or the main chassis, with no visible means of attachment.
Reading your reply, I realised that I haven't actually figured out how the main chassis tub is attached to the top/bottom-plate section. There are no likely rivets or screws that I can see, but I'll peel off the side covering tomorrow and see what I can find. I'll report back.
Steve.
The basic body/chassis is a deep pressing in fairly heavy-gauge steel. The aperture at the back of the pressing is smaller than the folds in the bellows so it covers the rear-most folds. There is a thinner-gauge steel pressing which forms the top-plate and bottom-plate and the sections either side of the door. The film gate, with rollers attached, is a separate piece, which appears to rest on the back either of this thin section, or the main chassis, with no visible means of attachment.
Reading your reply, I realised that I haven't actually figured out how the main chassis tub is attached to the top/bottom-plate section. There are no likely rivets or screws that I can see, but I'll peel off the side covering tomorrow and see what I can find. I'll report back.
Steve.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
I'm betting that when you remove the leatherette from those side panels you will see the ends of two brass rivets on each side. It would help if you could take some photos. I just looked through my gallery to see if I could find examples of what I am talking about, but all the photos I have are of cameras that are either stripped and polished for paint (and so are too shiny to show the rivet heads) or they have film cradles in the way, so I can't show you the rivets from the back. I'll have to go get one without film cradles and photograph it.
Grytpype
Well-known
Well it still has me beat! There is nothing underneath the side-covering except rust, and the great gobs of lumpy contact adhesive someone has used to glue the covers back. You should be able to see in the picture below that the outer shell forms a channel round the door opening, which the main chassis-tub fits into from behind. I imagine this is fairly normal for a folder.
I still can't see how the chassis is fixed into the shell, but I thought if I removed the screws (2 top, 2 bottom, see 2nd picture) holding the pivots for the door-bracing struts, maybe things might start to loosen up and become clearer.
However I noticed that at the bottom, where the tripod bush fits to the camera, the chrome bottom cover-plate appears to be pressed into the hole and riveted into the chassis-tub, which seems to eliminate any possibility of the chassis moving backwards out of the shell.
It's beginning to look to me as though this camera was designed NOT to be dis-assembled again, ever, or at least not without drilling out every single rivet! Is this a possibility?
I still can't see how the chassis is fixed into the shell, but I thought if I removed the screws (2 top, 2 bottom, see 2nd picture) holding the pivots for the door-bracing struts, maybe things might start to loosen up and become clearer.
However I noticed that at the bottom, where the tripod bush fits to the camera, the chrome bottom cover-plate appears to be pressed into the hole and riveted into the chassis-tub, which seems to eliminate any possibility of the chassis moving backwards out of the shell.
It's beginning to look to me as though this camera was designed NOT to be dis-assembled again, ever, or at least not without drilling out every single rivet! Is this a possibility?
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Grytpype
Well-known
Still puzzling over this every couple of hours, but all roads have been coming back to the tripod bush, which seems to rule out all possibilities. However another thought has just occurred: I assumed that the metal around the bush, which it screws into, was part of the chrome bottom-cover pressing because it looks like plated metal. The metal does not extend all the way round the tripod bush; it is more like a split bushing swaged out at the top to stop it slipping out. So I am going to try to remove the tripod bush and see if this part then comes out. The tripod bush is VERY tight, and as you might guess from the amount of corrosion elsewhere I don't think it will submit easily. I'm applying a few drops of WD 40 this evening and will give it a shot tomorrow.
hanskerensky
Well-known
And there is still the possibility that the Solida III bellows where glued at the backside.
Just had a look at my Solida III and when you look from the front in the right upper corner of the bellows compartment (use a flashlight) you can clearly see bellows material and not a plate (as for instance with an Agfa Isolette).
Also when you have a close look from the back at the bellows in the filmchamber there seems to be an edge to the bellows material.
I know i could be mistaken but i would rather have a close look at this possibility then starting to remove that tripod bushing.
Good luck and keep us posted !
Just had a look at my Solida III and when you look from the front in the right upper corner of the bellows compartment (use a flashlight) you can clearly see bellows material and not a plate (as for instance with an Agfa Isolette).
Also when you have a close look from the back at the bellows in the filmchamber there seems to be an edge to the bellows material.
I know i could be mistaken but i would rather have a close look at this possibility then starting to remove that tripod bushing.
Good luck and keep us posted !
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Grytpype
Well-known
Sorry FallisPhoto, there are definitely no rivets, or anything else in that vicinity! The main chassis (which I now suspect may not be much thicker gauge than the shell) ends at the edge of the door aperture. There are no rivets at all anywhere on this chassis-tub which could connect it to the shell. The only fixings at all which appear to connect the two are the 4 screws I mentioned above holding the door-strut mechanism. This could work, except that there doesn't seem to be anything at all at the latch end of the door-opening holding things together.
Any way around though, nothing can move unless the tripod bush is shifted. The situation this morning is that my second theory appears to be correct, and the bushing is now moving in the hole. However the tripod bush is still solidly siezed in the bushing. The bushing seems as though it is 'keyed' in to the camera, with a tab in the camera metalwork to stop it turning. Of course as I force it back and forward to try to free the tripod bush the 'key' is being damaged and the movement is increasing, so I'll have think hard about how to free it up or I will just end up with the bush turning freely and no way of getting it out!
Thanks for your post, hanskerensky. The bellows at the back do seem to be 'sandwiched' at the back, between the steel chassis-tub and the film-gate fixed on (somehow) behind. I'm betting they'll more than likely be glued as well! I've posted a picture showing a top corner in my camera from the front. The rear-most folds of the bellows lie behind the metal visible, which is part of the chassis-tub pressing. I've also shown a picture of a rear corner. The lower arrow shows the position of the edge of the film gate, below that is part of the shell pressing. The upper 2 arrows show the position of 2 of the tabs bent back against the folds of the bellows which I described in my first post.
Actually, I'm seriously thinking I should go back to 'Plan A' and try to bend up some of of those tabs and see what happens. It won't be that easy, but it's looking a **** of a lot easier now than all the alternatives!!
Any way around though, nothing can move unless the tripod bush is shifted. The situation this morning is that my second theory appears to be correct, and the bushing is now moving in the hole. However the tripod bush is still solidly siezed in the bushing. The bushing seems as though it is 'keyed' in to the camera, with a tab in the camera metalwork to stop it turning. Of course as I force it back and forward to try to free the tripod bush the 'key' is being damaged and the movement is increasing, so I'll have think hard about how to free it up or I will just end up with the bush turning freely and no way of getting it out!
Thanks for your post, hanskerensky. The bellows at the back do seem to be 'sandwiched' at the back, between the steel chassis-tub and the film-gate fixed on (somehow) behind. I'm betting they'll more than likely be glued as well! I've posted a picture showing a top corner in my camera from the front. The rear-most folds of the bellows lie behind the metal visible, which is part of the chassis-tub pressing. I've also shown a picture of a rear corner. The lower arrow shows the position of the edge of the film gate, below that is part of the shell pressing. The upper 2 arrows show the position of 2 of the tabs bent back against the folds of the bellows which I described in my first post.
Actually, I'm seriously thinking I should go back to 'Plan A' and try to bend up some of of those tabs and see what happens. It won't be that easy, but it's looking a **** of a lot easier now than all the alternatives!!
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Grytpype
Well-known
I'm thinking now that I may be looking at this from the wrong direction. The central chassis-tub section, which carries the door, its fittings, and lens plate APPEARS to simply sit in the channel formed in the outer shell around the door aperture, and I think that is all it does. The tripod bush and the screws holding the door bracing parts all have to be removed to separate the parts, but they would never have been intended to be part of what holds them together.
It seems more likely to me that what is holding the central tub into the shell is the gate itself. i.e. during assembly the central tub is placed in position in the shell and then the gate, with the bellows attached by the 10 tabs, is fixed to the rear of the shell, thus holding the centre section firmly in place.
The only flaw in this theory is that there appears to be even less holding the gate into the shell than holding the centre-tub. For all you can tell by looking at it, it might be glued in. There are definitely no rivets, screws, clips, bendable widgets - nothing! This may require a little more thought.
It seems more likely to me that what is holding the central tub into the shell is the gate itself. i.e. during assembly the central tub is placed in position in the shell and then the gate, with the bellows attached by the 10 tabs, is fixed to the rear of the shell, thus holding the centre section firmly in place.
The only flaw in this theory is that there appears to be even less holding the gate into the shell than holding the centre-tub. For all you can tell by looking at it, it might be glued in. There are definitely no rivets, screws, clips, bendable widgets - nothing! This may require a little more thought.
hanskerensky
Well-known
Hi Steve,
Just added some photos of the bellows of my Solida III on my Flickr pages. Looks a bit different then your Solida. Just choose the option all sizes above the photos and you can choose the largest size for details.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/4181961351/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/4182728624/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/4181969223/
Just added some photos of the bellows of my Solida III on my Flickr pages. Looks a bit different then your Solida. Just choose the option all sizes above the photos and you can choose the largest size for details.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/4181961351/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/4182728624/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/4181969223/
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Actually, in the first of the two photos in your last posting, it looks like it might be attached from the front. I see what looks like a flange surrounding the rear fold of the bellows and it looks like it might be removable. Is there anything holding in that flange surrounding the bellows? Incidentally, they are ALL glued in. This is in addition to (usually) being sandwiched between two pieces of metal though.
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Grytpype
Well-known
Interesting, hanskerensky, and very clear pictures! As you said, yours is quite a bit different and it does look, as you thought, that the bellows might be glued here. You may be able to see from the last of my pictures that below the gate, the part I am calling the 'shell' bends back at about 45° to the point where it meets the edge of the gate (at the lower arrow). The shell doesn't seem to be holding down the gate here, rather the edge of the gate seems to be sitting on top of the shelf formed by the shell, but it's not easy to be sure. This looks completely different to yours.
FallisPhoto, that flange is actually part of the main inner pressing I'm calling the chassis tub. The rear folds of the bellows are behind it, which is why I'm sure the bellows come out from the back. I haven't figured out yet what is the function of that shape pressed into the corners. Maybe that is something I should be looking at?
I still think the idea I suggested in my last post makes the best sense, but the question is, how could the gate be attached? At the moment I'm thinking in terms of the gate sliding sideways and coming unclipped, but the mountings for the rollers prevent any movement. I don't want to start levering things apart, because I will just end up distorting the gate and the camera will be a write-off.
I'm going to be away for a couple of days now, but hopefully I will be able to have another look on Wednesday or Thursday, and may try to take some pictures. Thanks to both of you for your help so far.
FallisPhoto, that flange is actually part of the main inner pressing I'm calling the chassis tub. The rear folds of the bellows are behind it, which is why I'm sure the bellows come out from the back. I haven't figured out yet what is the function of that shape pressed into the corners. Maybe that is something I should be looking at?
I still think the idea I suggested in my last post makes the best sense, but the question is, how could the gate be attached? At the moment I'm thinking in terms of the gate sliding sideways and coming unclipped, but the mountings for the rollers prevent any movement. I don't want to start levering things apart, because I will just end up distorting the gate and the camera will be a write-off.
I'm going to be away for a couple of days now, but hopefully I will be able to have another look on Wednesday or Thursday, and may try to take some pictures. Thanks to both of you for your help so far.
Grytpype
Well-known
Slightly delayed post due to problems uploading images. Actually I think my ISP may have gone belly-up because I see my previous images have disappeared! Anyway I'm hosting these elsewhere, so at least these should work.
Well I got there finally. Turns out my very first theory was the right one! The process went like this: -
First I realised my idea that the central tub was a separate part was wrong. The reason I was originally so sure of this was the fact that the interior of this section (around the bellows) appears completely seamless, but then I noticed that the grid-pattern of dimples inside the top and bottom of this section is reproduced identically on the top and bottom plates visible within the film-spool compartments, suggesting these are all the same piece. Comparison of thicknesses confirmed this. I think that the seamless appearance inside the 'tub' may be the result of the joint being lead-loaded. I've attempted to photograph one of these joins, inside and out:
From this it seemed to me that the whole body of the camera was assembled to form a single unit, and that the only detachable part was the gate. With no visible means of attachment for the gate apart from the 10 tabs. I made a prying bar from an old motor-cycle spoke (i.e. high-tensile steel) and started to lever the tabs up. Sure enough the gate started to loosen and finally came out! In the end the bellows came out to the front.
What is very surprising is that the gate rests entirely on the rear of the bellows, without any metal to metal contact to provide an accurate register (see lower left image showing bellows in the camera after the gate is removed). Is this normal?
I only opened the tabs by the minimum I needed to get the gate off, but I'm not completely confident that they will bend back without breaking off. Since the camera relies entirely on these to hold the gate on firmly and provide an accurate (?) register, I'm in two minds now whether I really want to set about making new bellows for it. It would not be much fun to put in that much effort and then find it wasted when the tabs break off during reassembly!
Well I got there finally. Turns out my very first theory was the right one! The process went like this: -
First I realised my idea that the central tub was a separate part was wrong. The reason I was originally so sure of this was the fact that the interior of this section (around the bellows) appears completely seamless, but then I noticed that the grid-pattern of dimples inside the top and bottom of this section is reproduced identically on the top and bottom plates visible within the film-spool compartments, suggesting these are all the same piece. Comparison of thicknesses confirmed this. I think that the seamless appearance inside the 'tub' may be the result of the joint being lead-loaded. I've attempted to photograph one of these joins, inside and out:
From this it seemed to me that the whole body of the camera was assembled to form a single unit, and that the only detachable part was the gate. With no visible means of attachment for the gate apart from the 10 tabs. I made a prying bar from an old motor-cycle spoke (i.e. high-tensile steel) and started to lever the tabs up. Sure enough the gate started to loosen and finally came out! In the end the bellows came out to the front.
What is very surprising is that the gate rests entirely on the rear of the bellows, without any metal to metal contact to provide an accurate register (see lower left image showing bellows in the camera after the gate is removed). Is this normal?
I only opened the tabs by the minimum I needed to get the gate off, but I'm not completely confident that they will bend back without breaking off. Since the camera relies entirely on these to hold the gate on firmly and provide an accurate (?) register, I'm in two minds now whether I really want to set about making new bellows for it. It would not be much fun to put in that much effort and then find it wasted when the tabs break off during reassembly!
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hanskerensky
Well-known
Hi Steve,
Congratulations with your well finished "quest" !
Very interesting for all us folder enthusiasts. That tool you made was a great idea.
Must have a look at my Solida III if it has the same construction and if it's older or younger then yours. For instance, were the bellows also glued ?
The serialnumber on my Schneider Radionar 1:2,9/80 lens is 3308161. Would
be nice if you could give me some info about the serialnr. on your Solida.
Regards,
Hans
Congratulations with your well finished "quest" !
Very interesting for all us folder enthusiasts. That tool you made was a great idea.
Must have a look at my Solida III if it has the same construction and if it's older or younger then yours. For instance, were the bellows also glued ?
The serialnumber on my Schneider Radionar 1:2,9/80 lens is 3308161. Would
be nice if you could give me some info about the serialnr. on your Solida.
Regards,
Hans
Grytpype
Well-known
The bellows weren't glued at the back or front, Hans. Hard to describe, but the rearmost inward fold of the bellows fits around the flange visible from the front, and the tabs on the gate, bending back, press from inside the bellows against the front of this flange, holding the gate against the back.
The lens (also a 2.9/80 Radionar) is serial number 3771206. I haven't found a number on the camera itself.
I probably will have a go at replacing the bellows eventually, but I haven't got the materials yet. It will be my first try at bellows, and since it is rather a rough and rusty camera it is perhaps a good one to practice on. It looks rather difficult to arrange the rear surface of the bellows to be adequately flat where the gate fixes over it. This seems a rather weak bit of design to me.
Regards,
Steve.
The lens (also a 2.9/80 Radionar) is serial number 3771206. I haven't found a number on the camera itself.
I probably will have a go at replacing the bellows eventually, but I haven't got the materials yet. It will be my first try at bellows, and since it is rather a rough and rusty camera it is perhaps a good one to practice on. It looks rather difficult to arrange the rear surface of the bellows to be adequately flat where the gate fixes over it. This seems a rather weak bit of design to me.
Regards,
Steve.
hanskerensky
Well-known
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the information about the serial number !
btw I have the cheapest Solida III model, no rangefinder and a Prontor SV shutter.
The most expensive model in 1954 in The Netherland was the one with the
rangefinder and a Synchro-Compur shutter. It costed 230 Dutch Guilders (108 Euros).
If we assume that the lenses in our Solidas were never swapped yours should be younger.
My Solida III still has sound bellows so i'm not inclined to check but surely looks like it is glued. There were many Franka folders produced in the nineteen-fifties so i can imagine that sometimes other manufacturing methods were introduced to make them cheaper to produce or to ment some problems with the older models.
Replacing the bellows on your Solida III makes only sense if you want to
learn the handycraft or make something realy flashy (like coloured bellows).
There surely will be much time involved in making your own bellows.
Maybe, when you have measured the old bellows, first try to make a "mock-up" bellows from thicker paper and see if it fits.
Regards,
Hans
Edit :
Just forgot that i still had a Solida Jr (Junior) somewhere. Just checked it out and indeed the bellows in that folder looks like they are also attached by tabs like yours Solida III !
Thanks for the information about the serial number !
btw I have the cheapest Solida III model, no rangefinder and a Prontor SV shutter.
The most expensive model in 1954 in The Netherland was the one with the
rangefinder and a Synchro-Compur shutter. It costed 230 Dutch Guilders (108 Euros).
If we assume that the lenses in our Solidas were never swapped yours should be younger.
My Solida III still has sound bellows so i'm not inclined to check but surely looks like it is glued. There were many Franka folders produced in the nineteen-fifties so i can imagine that sometimes other manufacturing methods were introduced to make them cheaper to produce or to ment some problems with the older models.
Replacing the bellows on your Solida III makes only sense if you want to
learn the handycraft or make something realy flashy (like coloured bellows).
There surely will be much time involved in making your own bellows.
Maybe, when you have measured the old bellows, first try to make a "mock-up" bellows from thicker paper and see if it fits.
Regards,
Hans
Edit :
Just forgot that i still had a Solida Jr (Junior) somewhere. Just checked it out and indeed the bellows in that folder looks like they are also attached by tabs like yours Solida III !
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Grytpype
Well-known
Hi Hans,
Mine has the Prontor-S shutter but has the rangefinder. It's certainly true that the condition of the camera doesn't really justify the amount of work needed to make the bellows, but it would be useful practice in case I need to do the job on a better specimen. I've downloaded several sets of instructions, and most seem to reckon it is not too difficult, just very tedious! I'll put it on one side for now until I have found suitable materials.
Steve.
Mine has the Prontor-S shutter but has the rangefinder. It's certainly true that the condition of the camera doesn't really justify the amount of work needed to make the bellows, but it would be useful practice in case I need to do the job on a better specimen. I've downloaded several sets of instructions, and most seem to reckon it is not too difficult, just very tedious! I'll put it on one side for now until I have found suitable materials.
Steve.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Well, a little paint, some polishing, and it might turn out great. As for making a bellows for it, that might not be necessary. Maybe a Kodak 66 bellows will fit it. Kodak 66es were horrible cameras, were cheaply made, but had good 6x6 bellows that are easy to harvest, with just minimal care. Since the cameras they were attached to were so horrible, most have not seen a lot of use and the bellows are, more often than not, in pristine condition.
Charles
Grytpype
Well-known
I must admit I've been having some second thoughts about making the new bellows, Charles! The rest of the camera really does need a lot of work to make it presentable, and I rather think you weren't too far off the mark in your first post when you said you hadn't met a camera worth more than $10 where the bellows were held in by tabs.
It does seem to me a rather poor design - a good example of built-in obsolescence. I'd bet that if the bellows needed replacing while the camera was current, for accident damage for example, the recommended procedure would have been to replace the gate as well. In order to loosely assemble the camera, while I located the materials I needed, I had to bend the tabs out quite a bit more than I already had, and even then I did quite a bit of damage to the old bellows.
Finding a cheap ready-made replacement bellows as you suggest would definitely be the way to go. That way I haven't wasted too much work if it goes wrong. Alternatively I might look out for another old folder with missing/junk lens/shutter unit and see if I could put together a hybrid! there is a bit of fungus in the lens, but it looks as though it will clean up pretty well.
Anyway, thanks for your help. It's the first folder I've worked on, and I've learned quite a lot.
Steve.
It does seem to me a rather poor design - a good example of built-in obsolescence. I'd bet that if the bellows needed replacing while the camera was current, for accident damage for example, the recommended procedure would have been to replace the gate as well. In order to loosely assemble the camera, while I located the materials I needed, I had to bend the tabs out quite a bit more than I already had, and even then I did quite a bit of damage to the old bellows.
Finding a cheap ready-made replacement bellows as you suggest would definitely be the way to go. That way I haven't wasted too much work if it goes wrong. Alternatively I might look out for another old folder with missing/junk lens/shutter unit and see if I could put together a hybrid! there is a bit of fungus in the lens, but it looks as though it will clean up pretty well.
Anyway, thanks for your help. It's the first folder I've worked on, and I've learned quite a lot.
Steve.