Does your J-3 go from 1.5 to 16 or 22?

[raid]

My "new" 1951 KMZ made J-3 goes from 1.5 to 22.

I am a happy dude.😀

It could be a German parts lens, and maybe it is a CZJ lens in disguise?

 

[raid]

So the CZJ 5cm 1.5 lens focuses down to 16 and the J-3 to 22. I mixed things up.
I followed Brian's suggestion to buy this lens. I found it listed on ebay, and I could barely see the outline of the KMZ logo. The look of the lens resembles a CZJ, as Brian told me.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The "T" version of the CZJ 5cm F1.5 of 1940 (or so) stopped down to F22. The earliest uncoated lenses stopped down to F9 (ish, maybe F8), then F11, then F16, then arrived at F22. My uncoated CZJ Sonnars stop down to F11, and the "T" version lenses stop down to F22. My ZK SOnnar also goes to F22.

The 1951 J-3 that Raid picked up has "ears" on the aperture. Probably has a German optical fixture and certainly German glass as well.

 

[raid]

I tried it out today with the sunset at the beach.
The lens looks cosmetically very clean.
The "ears" were a good sign,as Brian said above.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Someday I will post the evolution lenses that I have. I added a "transition" lens to the collection lately, one that I've worked on twice before. It was the "missing link" in between the last of the lenses made with German parts and the J-3. How do I know? you would just have to take it apart to believe it! And I'm working on another one for an RFF member that is like it. Lots of hand-machined aluminum, copying the Wartime German LTM lens.

I've got an early German Wartime, Late German Wartime, ZK Sonnar, the transition lens, and two 1953 J-3's with German Glass in Russian bodies.

 

[raid]

Brian,
Do you suspect that my 1951 J-3 is like your 1953 J-3's?
Is such a J-3 to some degree the "best to get"?
How is it different from the ZK?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

My opinion: The ZK is all German parts, optics made in Germany, assembled in Russia. The 1953 uses German glass. The 1950 J-3 and 1951 J-3 seem to have mostly German parts, with more machining done in Russia. My 1950 J-3 in LTM was a "disaster", the optics fixture was too long for the optics. It never worked. I'm thinking it took a few tried to get it right. I look forward to seeing the '51 J-3 this Summer.

 

[raid]

Is a 1951 KMZ J-3 of low production ?
I hope that my 1951 lens turns out to be a really fine J-3.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

It's probably in the thousands. Which is low production in my book. What is the serial number?

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

Someday I will post the evolution lenses that I have. I added a "transition" lens to the collection lately, one that I've worked on twice before. It was the "missing link" in between the last of the lenses made with German parts and the J-3. How do I know? you would just have to take it apart to believe it! And I'm working on another one for an RFF member that is like it. Lots of hand-machined aluminum, copying the Wartime German LTM lens.

I've got an early German Wartime, Late German Wartime, ZK Sonnar, the transition lens, and two 1953 J-3's with German Glass in Russian bodies.

fascinating stuff! - but as a precision engineer, I'm a bit curious as to how you tell the "hand-machined aluminum" from the machine-machined variety? 😀😉
Dave.

 

[raid]

Here are 3 pics of the lens. The seller was honest about it all, and he sent me the lens that was portrayed in the ad.

 

[raid]

serial number: 5103422
The lens looks very clean.
The third photo of the lens suggested to me that it was made by KMZ. The logo can barely be seen.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

fascinating stuff! - but as a precision engineer, I'm a bit curious as to how you tell the "hand-machined aluminum" from the machine-machined variety? 😀😉
Dave.

The slots for the guide pins are uneven. On the lens that I am working on now, the size of the slots are different. In fact, as received the lens would not focus. It turns out the guide pins were different diameters, one was ever so slightly smaller than the other. Someone had worked on the lens prior to myself and put the pins on the opposite sides of how they were originally intended. I've never seen a wartime Sonnar or J-3 do that before. The machining had been "eye-balled".

Dave, I see you have a lot to learn about Russian lenses and their evolution. Always glad to make you just a little bit smarter.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Here is a shot of the ZK's optics module, showing the SN stamped in at Zeiss.

ZK Name ring.

But the "M" is used on the ZK Sonnar shown here, as it is engraved on the J-3. "M" is never on the Zeiss Sonnar, which used a lower case "m".

The ZK and late German Zeiss side by side.

The "transition lens", as I call it, has a small "m".

I've seen several lenses like this. "Made the same way", not uniform enough to be from a production line, and not as good as the professional conversions from England and other shops that did them.

The ZK is made of German parts, finished in Russia. My guess is the 1951 is mixed parts. The "transition lens" appears to be some looking at the original Zeiss lens and making up new copies. The J-3 mechanism is not as complicated, easier to make, easier to work on, and a bit more reliable than the original. I prefer the J-3 focus mount over the original Zeiss design.

 

[raid]

In my lens the insides would expose what this lens really is.
Is a 1951 lens the same way for all 1951 lenses or are there some lenses made from different parts than others?

I may have a 1953 or 1956 J3 too.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I suspect that the lenses made between1950 and 1952 has some mix of German and Russian parts, and some Russian parts styled after the German originals. The "ears" on the aperture ring were copied in early lenses and then dropped sometime between 1951 and 1952. By 1953, a J-3 "looked like" a J-3. Ears were gone, and the focus mechanism was changed. Many 1950s J-3's still had one retaining screw to hold the helical into the focus mount. In the mid to late 1950s, this was changed to using three set screws to hold it in place, a much better arrangement.

 

[raid]

The 1951 J-3 feels the heaviest of my three J-3 lenses. It feels as heavy as a CZJ Sonnar 5cm 1,5. The rim looks different from all my 5cm 1/5 lenses.

 

[outfitter]

There has been extensive research into the Soviet Contax copy lenses and it is agreed that German lens barrels and parts of barrels were used but any statement about the source of the lens elements is pure speculation - which is the conclusion of experts with access to more documented samples than would be available to mere mortals.

 

[raid]

There has been extensive research into the Soviet Contax copy lenses and it is agreed that German lens barrels and parts of barrels were used but any statement about the source of the lens elements is pure speculation - which is the conclusion of experts with access to more documented samples than would be available to mere mortals.

A few useful links would be great here.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The problem is that the documentation is piecemeal and not readily available. One piece of information that I have seen is that the J-3 was reformulated in 1954, and conjecture made that it was required as the original German glass had been depleted. Lacking original documentation and records, it's fun to just take a bunch of them apart and see how they changed during the transition from German LTM Sonnars through the late J-3's.