M8 loops in cold weather

[borrel]

What is "cold" weather anyway? All my film cameras are quite happy in cold weather, from the modest R35S, through the F2 (film was hard to pull through at -25°C, it would tend to crack), my CL (not even the batteries complain), to the Rolleiflex and Mamiya Universal. My M8 has been out in -5°C without too much complaint as long as it's under my jacket close to my chest. This afternoon I hung it over my shoulder under the jacket again and took a few pictures going down the road, all the time keeping it out of the cold when not taking. Then this happened: http://abdallah.hiof.no/photography/leica-m8.mp3 The only way to stop it was to take out the battery. It helped a couple of times and then it just started cycling as soon as the power switch came on. I've never paid much attention to the "Operating conditions" data in the manual, just making sure that an extra battery was available. Well - the temperture this afternoon was -10°C and the manual says "0 to +40°C". What sort of Leica is that? -10 is definitely not that cold. Nice tourist camera the M8, but all those Germans doing Lindblad to Antarctica, must be terribly dissapointed.

- Børre

 

[Olsen]

Børre,

I have used my M8 for years in typical Norwegian winter weather. I have never experienced anything like this. It is hardly the cold itself, but it could be humidity - which could be the consequence of low temperature, that is making your camera is going wild.

 

[johnalex141r]

My M8 does this, too.

My M8 does this, too.

Børre,

I have used my M8 for years in typical Norwegian winter weather. I have never experienced anything like this. It is hardly the cold itself, but it could be humidity - which could be the consequence of low temperature, that is making your camera is going wild.

No, my M8 does this, too; last time it was about +3; beautiful day, but camera was in my bicycle bag, so was at ambient temperature and I had been cycling home from work for about 30 minutes by then. The first time it happened, I was out walking in IIRC, something like -24c; the camera was fine, after 18 clicks then the uncontrollable shutte recocking happened.

I now no longer carry my m8 when it is cold out; I have better luck with film cameras. I have 3 batteries, they are all 2007/2008 vintage; maybe they are too old?

I wondered whether it is the fact that I have the "original" shutter; maybe the newer shutter works better in cold weather?

As the OP found out, once things are back to room temperature it is ok.

JohnS
Ottawa, Canada.

 

[borrel]

40% relative humidity inside and out. Ideal for old books. I wouldn't think my body gave off enough humidity for it to effect the camera that quickly. Seems the Leica people have done some testing themselves. The temperature range for my 5D2 is the same, but they also specify <85% humidity. Thank goodness for film.

- Børre

 

[niels christopher]

I used my M8 in similar conditions (roundabout -10°C and snow) a few times, but I never noticed something like this.

When using the camera in continueous shooting mode, some kind of loop-problem can occur if you set your shutter to "discreet".
Probably you used the same settings?

 

[borrel]

It was very definitely not in continuous mode, but the profile was set to discrete when I went out. Turned it off, but it didn't help. I shall turn off discrete in all 3 profiles and see what happens next time.

- Børre

 

[Jeicob]

40% relative humidity inside and out.

As the air trapped in your gear cools, it's relative humidity will rise!

 

[ampguy]

no problems here

no problems here

15-20 deg F (-10 deg C), one hour walks. But maybe half the time kept in an insulated bag. It's also in a leather half case. If it's too cold for bare hands, I immediately put it away and head for shelter.

Always let it warm to room temp after using. Rel. Humidity is ~ 30-45 %.

What is "cold" weather anyway? All my film cameras are quite happy in cold weather, from the modest R35S, through the F2 (film was hard to pull through at -25°C, it would tend to crack), my CL (not even the batteries complain), to the Rolleiflex and Mamiya Universal. My M8 has been out in -5°C without too much complaint as long as it's under my jacket close to my chest. This afternoon I hung it over my shoulder under the jacket again and took a few pictures going down the road, all the time keeping it out of the cold when not taking. Then this happened: http://abdallah.hiof.no/photography/leica-m8.mp3 The only way to stop it was to take out the battery. It helped a couple of times and then it just started cycling as soon as the power switch came on. I've never paid much attention to the "Operating conditions" data in the manual, just making sure that an extra battery was available. Well - the temperture this afternoon was -10°C and the manual says "0 to +40°C". What sort of Leica is that? -10 is definitely not that cold. Nice tourist camera the M8, but all those Germans doing Lindblad to Antarctica, must be terribly dissapointed.

- Børre

 

[Olsen]

I took my M8 for a spin here in Oslo today. We have between -8 and -12C and 35 - 40% humidity in Oslo, these days. I had with me two top charged batteries. I carried the camera over the shoulder, uninsulated. The first battery showed less than 50% capacity left after a well an hour outdoor, but it was still working OK. I experienced no problem with shutter actuations. I switched between continuous mode and discrete several times, trying to provoke any problems. The M8 worked fine.

After having the camera outdoor for close to one and a half hour I went indoor. I had to take a phone and when picking up the camera again after a while, I noticed it was all wet with moisture due to that it had been so cold. But still it was working flawlessly.

 

[aniMal]

Same experience here, works fine in moderate cold - except for battery life being very short...

Once forgot to bring a plastic bag when skiing, with heavy moisture as result. It then needed some time drying out back home, but worked fine afterwards.

Tomorrow there might be -15 to -20c, and I plan on going skiing - something like 30 km. Was planning to bring my new Sony A900, but this thread somehow makes me want to test the M8 in some real cold! 😉 Will have to see about that, and I will report if I choose to do so...

 

[Olsen]

I took my M8 over my shoulder going skiing last winter. I wrote a string about here it last year. I went down hill/slalom with the camera with the neck strap across my chest. The only ill effect I noticed was that the battery went flat fast. It was impossible to avoid that the camera became wet of snow. - I fell several times and it was heavy loose/cold snow. Still it worked fine. It was not that cold as now, though. Possibly only a few degrees bellow zero C.

I have also had my Canon 1Ds II for a long time outdoor in minus 18 - 21 C, a few years back. The only thing effected somewhat was battery life. But I could still use the camera most of the day, outdoor in these low temperatures, tracking lynx in Sweden. We followed the tracks for miles, but saw no lynx, though. A biting cold experience...

 

[tmfabian]

if it's too cold for my fingers, i always use this rule of thumb, then i gaffer tape a hand warmer to the bottom of the camera, and since the whole thing is metal, the heat transfers nicely and keeps the camera nice and warm and happy...granted this isn't the ideal solution for many people, especially those who like to keep their gear looking pristine, but for me it works splendidly, my whole camera is gaffer taped for various reasons.

 

[Olsen]

Børre,

Regardless, something is wrong with your M8. Send it to Leica, Solms via Interfoto. It could well be that it is on warranty. Then it will not cost you anything. Nor will Interfoto charge you anything.

 

[kdemas]

I had a similar problem with my M8 some time back, but in normal weather conditions. It turned out to be the shutter recocking mechanism and it was fixed in New Jersey.

I wonder if the cold might be affecting a borderline mechanism and causing this problem to crop up?

Kent

 

[jaapv]

What is "cold" weather anyway? All my film cameras are quite happy in cold weather, from the modest R35S, through the F2 (film was hard to pull through at -25°C, it would tend to crack), my CL (not even the batteries complain), to the Rolleiflex and Mamiya Universal. My M8 has been out in -5°C without too much complaint as long as it's under my jacket close to my chest. This afternoon I hung it over my shoulder under the jacket again and took a few pictures going down the road, all the time keeping it out of the cold when not taking. Then this happened: http://abdallah.hiof.no/photography/leica-m8.mp3 The only way to stop it was to take out the battery. It helped a couple of times and then it just started cycling as soon as the power switch came on. I've never paid much attention to the "Operating conditions" data in the manual, just making sure that an extra battery was available. Well - the temperture this afternoon was -10°C and the manual says "0 to +40°C". What sort of Leica is that? -10 is definitely not that cold. Nice tourist camera the M8, but all those Germans doing Lindblad to Antarctica, must be terribly dissapointed.

- Børre

Btw, all digital cameras have a similar lower limit in the manual - and like the Leicas - will ususally do fine at lower temperatures.

 

[Makten]

Taking the camera in and out from the warmth and humidity underneith the jackets seems like a really, really bad idea. I've noticed the back of the camera getting all wet just from wearing it on my chest on a cold day, with the jacket unzipped!

 

[borrel]

Conclusion

Conclusion

Kent is correct. (See this discussion: http://tinyurl.com/ybwlvxa on the same problem.) This a shutter problem specific to my camera. Now I remembered that the problem cropped up a couple of times while walking around Naples last month. The temperature there was nowhere below +15°C. Anyway, I tried again today. Reset all the user settings and reinstalled firmware 2.004. After about 15 minutes carrying the camera in the open (-12°C), the rewind cycle started stuttering and then became gradually worse until it was continually recyling like this http://abdallah.hiof.no/photography/leica-m8.mp3 The only way of turning it off was by disconnecting the battery. In the end it was recycling continuously just by turning the power switch on. As opposed to the intermittent problems in Naples, there is no error message on the screen. As for humidity, these cameras should stand at least 85% relative. After all, they should be useable in normal human environments. They are made for us aren't they? And by the way, I also took out the 5D2 with a Contax 35/1.4 on. No problems whatsoever. Looks like my M8, with which I have been very happy, by the way, will be going to Germany.

- Børre

 

[Makten]

As for humidity, these cameras should stand at least 85% relative. After all, they should be useable in normal human environments. They are made for us aren't they?

Putting a cold camera in a warmer, humid place, is actually not what I'd call "normal human environments". That's sort of like getting into a sauna from the snow. Some people like that, but I doubt cameras do. 😀

 

[borrel]

Humidity

Humidity

None of my cameras seem to mind. A series of EOS DSLR's have been quite happy, a couple of Sigmas (DP1 & 2) are fine in inner netting pockets and the Epson R-D1 never complained. Not to mention mechanicals like the Leica CL, Nikon F2, Rolleiflex 3003, or the smaller Rollei 35S and Minox 35. Right now relative humidity inside is between 40% and 45%. Outside would be even less and I have not noticed any condensation on my cameras when they are brought in from the cold, nor when carried under a jacket. I suppose the real test of resistance to humidity has been using them in Beirut, where humidity in summer and autumn evenings can often approach 100%. Enough to bring condensation on to outside surfaces of lenses and viewfinders when the camera is brought out of the house. My M8 has been quite happy in that environment too. In fact the only digital cameras I've ever experienced humidity problems with were a couple of IXUS 5's where apparently, humidity can get onto the sensor and create problems. Both were immediately replaced by Canon at no cost. For one 5 year old IXUS the underwater housing and camera were replaced at no cost with a brand new 95 IS. After all it would be ridiculous to ask the price of an M8 or the like and then warn that it could not be used "professionally" (within reason of course).
- Børre

 

[virgi]

hello everyone, and hej Børre,

pleased to find this topic!
I am from Stockholm, and I recently encountered the same problem several times with my M8.2, the symptom is that the shutter goes crazy and loops like you say. Sometimes it stops by itself, but other times it was necessary to remove the battery because the body did not respond anymore. Same problem even if changing the battery. I noticed it happens after staying outside in the cold, for about 1 hour. The temperature was between -5 and -10°C, not that cold! Today the weather was sunny, about -7°C, but quite humid. I tried to keep the body as warm as possible (under the jacket when not used), apparently it was better, but it happened anyway after 45mn outside. The shutter had just 5-6 times "loops" instead of much more or a definitive freeze. But it happened again and I cannot rely on it.

I guess it begins to fail because of the combination "cold" + "humidity". So, what is the limit, what can be considered normal conditions and not, and what can be considered as a failure or not? In my opinion, -7°C is not that cold, and without snow it's far from extreme conditions like Antarctic! So, I don't think this can be called a "normal" behaviour, even if the specifications say "operations conditions from 0 to +40°C"... For me, this body works very well inside but if I cannot used it outside in town, it becomes useless. My question: is it a global problem of conception, or only a few models that are more sensitive?

I don't know if I shall send it back. I am happy with my analog Leica M, but not with the behaviour of the digital, while I like the pictures it can give. If I didn't have any other problem before, I would send it back, but now I am getting really bored! Between april and november, I have been without my M8.2 body for almost 4 months (yes, almost 50% of the time during this period!) because of a LCD problem that did not work anymore, plus other delays due to Leica. For that I only got a "sorry dude, you were not lucky" response from Leica Solms, nothing more, and not even a word from Leica UK. So disappointing. Not good. Not acceptable.

And now, I shall send it back again?! For how long this time? Would Leica be able to understand and reproduce this issue? For now, the Leica customer service has really disappointed me, they don't even reply to my letters (neither Leica UK or Leica Solms). I can understand that there are some technical problem to be fixed, but I cannot accept to be ignored like that and remain without digital body anymore. I have to conclude they are not serious and they don't care about me.

So, I don't know what to do. I will not send it back before having some guarantees. At the same time, I'm beginning to think I have to sell it, unfortunately...