kbg32
neo-romanticist
Kodak made a very high end b & w only digital. It was quirky and failed miserably.
Would yo buy a B&W only 16 BIT M9 ?
- Thread starter mfogiel
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The Monochrome Digital Kodak was no quirkier than the color model, it was done over 10 years ago. Mine still works.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
Despite the fact that 90 percent of what I shoot is in B&W, there is no way I'd buy a B&W only camera. I just don't agree with the notion that digital cameras are incapable of producing stunning B&W images.
It does require a bit of work on the processing end. But then that's just life with digital photography. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but I believe that too many get discouraged by digital B&W (and color for that matter) because they aren't happy with the results straight out of the camera.
But anyone who's spent any measurable time in an actual darkroom knows that great images require a certain amount of work there as well.
It does require a bit of work on the processing end. But then that's just life with digital photography. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but I believe that too many get discouraged by digital B&W (and color for that matter) because they aren't happy with the results straight out of the camera.
But anyone who's spent any measurable time in an actual darkroom knows that great images require a certain amount of work there as well.
TomN
Established
why would anyone in their right mind buy such a thing when you can get an m6 and 1000 rolls of b&w film (self processed) and then perform a 16 bit scan. you get your digi film, and a negative.
and i haven't figured out how to put a digican into my durst d659 enlarger yet!
and i haven't figured out how to put a digican into my durst d659 enlarger yet!
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Do you still use it?
Yes, on occasion. I mostly use it for Infrared. I keep a Win 95B machine running for the SCSI interface. I also wrote my own Raw converter, which picks up more dynamic range than the Kodak Twain drivers. Hence the statement that software for Monochrome cameras is fairly trivial. Less to do than with color images requiring interpolation.
I can even put the reference portion of the CCD into the image. Of course, my software is written in FORTRAN and Assembly.
A Monochrome M9 would likely be $9,000+ to cover the custom run of the CCD. That's just a guess. It was an extra $4,000 over the standard $8,400 price of a DCS200 in 1993 for the custom run of the CCD. It was a zero-defect sensor, a real accomplishment back then.
I guess the question I have is: why would a monochrome camera be quirkier than an identical model that has a Mosaic filter with it? The level of quirkinessis less, no worry about white balance, 2x increase in sensitivity, and 4x increase in spatial resolution (worse case: blue or red objects being photographed), no aliasing problems. So unless you use a monochrome camera with a color wheel to make color images, no extra quirks.
I can even put the reference portion of the CCD into the image. Of course, my software is written in FORTRAN and Assembly.
A Monochrome M9 would likely be $9,000+ to cover the custom run of the CCD. That's just a guess. It was an extra $4,000 over the standard $8,400 price of a DCS200 in 1993 for the custom run of the CCD. It was a zero-defect sensor, a real accomplishment back then.
I guess the question I have is: why would a monochrome camera be quirkier than an identical model that has a Mosaic filter with it? The level of quirkinessis less, no worry about white balance, 2x increase in sensitivity, and 4x increase in spatial resolution (worse case: blue or red objects being photographed), no aliasing problems. So unless you use a monochrome camera with a color wheel to make color images, no extra quirks.
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kxl
Social Documentary
NO.
Not even if:
Not even if:
- Leica were interested and actually did make one,
- It sells for half the price of the M9
- It is full frame with all the features anyone could ever want
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I'd buy one if I could afford it, but the regular M9 costs more than I have earned on some years and you know the BW version will cost twice as much. I'll stick to my M4 and Tmax 400 and 3200
What would be required to make this camera: leave the color dyes off of the Mosaic Filter, leaving all of the sites clear. That would allow the sensor geometry to be preserved and would be a minimal intrusion on the fabrication process.
More images from my Monochrome DSLR.
Hand-held. The spinning media (2.5" notebook SCSI disk) in the camera helps stabilize it for hand-held photographjy.
100% crop.
Hand-Held, wide-open at F2.8 with the Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8.
Full-crop
You can see the hot-pixel that the CCD picked up on its 15th year.
This camera is almost 20 years old. Some advances have been made since then. A Monochrome M9 would yield some incredible Black and White. "Just Desaturating" is "okay", but it is more accurate to add the sensor output in each 2x2 Bayer site to yield a monochrome equivalent detection.
Has anyone else on this forum actually used or owned a Monochrome Digital camera? I suspect I'm the only person here that has called the Kodak factory to have one custom made.
More images from my Monochrome DSLR.
Hand-held. The spinning media (2.5" notebook SCSI disk) in the camera helps stabilize it for hand-held photographjy.
100% crop.
Hand-Held, wide-open at F2.8 with the Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8.
Full-crop
You can see the hot-pixel that the CCD picked up on its 15th year.
This camera is almost 20 years old. Some advances have been made since then. A Monochrome M9 would yield some incredible Black and White. "Just Desaturating" is "okay", but it is more accurate to add the sensor output in each 2x2 Bayer site to yield a monochrome equivalent detection.
Has anyone else on this forum actually used or owned a Monochrome Digital camera? I suspect I'm the only person here that has called the Kodak factory to have one custom made.
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biggambi
Vivere!
Brian,
Thank you for sharing your pictures and knowledge in this field.
I do think there is a real economic issue for Leica, that would cause them apprehension. I still believe that the best way to see this product come to be, is a financial commitment by a group of buyers. I think a small company like Leica would be receptive to a special project if the right monetary incentives where in place.
What I am wondering is the feasibility of an aftermarket conversion of the M8 & M8.2? What would one expect for the image quality with this size sensor? What size of production numbers are needed to make the cost marketable?
Kindest Regards,
Thank you for sharing your pictures and knowledge in this field.
I do think there is a real economic issue for Leica, that would cause them apprehension. I still believe that the best way to see this product come to be, is a financial commitment by a group of buyers. I think a small company like Leica would be receptive to a special project if the right monetary incentives where in place.
What I am wondering is the feasibility of an aftermarket conversion of the M8 & M8.2? What would one expect for the image quality with this size sensor? What size of production numbers are needed to make the cost marketable?
Kindest Regards,
downstairs
downstairs
I've got though four DCS's since the monochrome 420 in 1993. I did mostly B&W portraits with a 50mm Nikkor. For products, I got round the small format thing by stitching 3 verticals most of the time. Two odd-ball Proneas did web animation. The last full-frame DCS billed about 100k euro doing watches; either mounted upside-down with a pcNikkor (the lever won't fit over the tummy) or with a 60mm macro nikkor, vertical stitched.
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Downstairs- very nice use, would love to see some of the images posted.
Biggambi- it is not possible to substitute a different CCD for the one in the M8 as the KAF-10500 is not available without the color Mosaic Filter. The cover glass is cemented in place, and it is not possible to remove. Removing the cover glass would be required to bleach the Mosaic Filter. The CCD would be destroyed.
A semi-custom run of the CCD would be required to skip a step. Kodak did a custom run of 50 CCD's to leave off the IR blocking filter for the KAF-1600 to create the DCS200ir. I talked to them about it, and a little while later they called back and said they would do it. They had a second request for the same modification and told me they were doing a custom run of 50 CCD's.
Biggambi- it is not possible to substitute a different CCD for the one in the M8 as the KAF-10500 is not available without the color Mosaic Filter. The cover glass is cemented in place, and it is not possible to remove. Removing the cover glass would be required to bleach the Mosaic Filter. The CCD would be destroyed.
A semi-custom run of the CCD would be required to skip a step. Kodak did a custom run of 50 CCD's to leave off the IR blocking filter for the KAF-1600 to create the DCS200ir. I talked to them about it, and a little while later they called back and said they would do it. They had a second request for the same modification and told me they were doing a custom run of 50 CCD's.
downstairs
downstairs
3-Stitch monochrome Kodak DCS 420.
DCS 14N converted to monochrome. Not the same tone range!
DCS 14N converted to monochrome. Not the same tone range!
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That is really nice.
The only Image stitching that I've seen was a custom sensor using multiple 25Mpixel CCD's. Four were used, for 100MPixel monochrome images. One of my mechanical engineers assisted on the project, loaned to another group.
The only Image stitching that I've seen was a custom sensor using multiple 25Mpixel CCD's. Four were used, for 100MPixel monochrome images. One of my mechanical engineers assisted on the project, loaned to another group.
biggambi
Vivere!
Brian: If I am following you, it is possible to retrofit a new sensor. But, it would require a custom run by Kodak. Is this correct? Would the current electronic architecture support a custom CCD? Would you expect to see results that would make such a conversion a worthwhile endeavor? Let's set aside the cost for now and look just from the perspective of benefits gained.
The current electronics of the camera would support a custom run of the KAF-18500 that left the color dye out of the Bayer filter. I think that the easiest "hack", just use a Mosaic Filter layer that does not have any color dye in it.
Again, I'm an engineer. When we needed something made for a procject, we approached the company, stated the need, and got a quote. Often, we paid the NRE.
Again, I'm an engineer. When we needed something made for a procject, we approached the company, stated the need, and got a quote. Often, we paid the NRE.
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Frank Dernie
Member
I have only sporadically used B&W since I could afford colour in the 1970s. I do not have the eye for it somehow.
Electronics are inherently much more reliable than mechanical devices, but microelectronic parts may become no-longer-available, whilst some unavailable mechanical parts can be made by a good technician.
Electronics are inherently much more reliable than mechanical devices, but microelectronic parts may become no-longer-available, whilst some unavailable mechanical parts can be made by a good technician.
biggambi
Vivere!
Brian: This still begs the question, would you expect the M8x converted to produce an image that would be worth the endeavor? Again, setting aside the cost, and looking just at the quality of the image.
Regards,
Regards,
ampguy
Veteran
For b/w, the M9 will never achieve the quality of the M8.
ashrafazlan
Established
could you explain why?