Compur Synchro Lubricants

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Ron G

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Has anyone ever found out what the lubricants are that are called out in the Compur Synchro service manual.What do the letters A,B,C and D signify and what can I use knowing that the original lubricants are not available any longer?Thanks.Ron G
 
What i have seen on the net untill now is that 1 of them is a grease and that A is probably a dilluted oil, the dillutor probably being a quick evaporating fluid. This was done to get an even very, very thin layer of oil. You could try the same with a thin synthetic oil like i.e. from Moebius.

Never seen until now somebody writing about still using dilluted oil. Think applying i.e. Moebius 8000 in very small quantities gives about the same result. Will try that with the Compur Rapid i'm cleaning now.

As a grease i use molybdeen grease most of the times. Again use sparingly in thin layers.
 
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Thanks for the reply.It is too bad that someone from Deckel had not leaked this info along the way for us.I have just ordered some of the "NYE" lubricants products which seem to be highly regarded by some of the technicians who repair these old cameras and I also contacted NYE for any info that they might have on the specifications of the old Deckel requirements and did receive a phone call from them but was unable to resolve anything.I ordered the "Hobby" kit which contains two different oils and a grease.We will have to see what shows up and hopefully I can use it intelligently.Thanks again for your reply.
I am finishing up a Bessamatic which is taking great pictures but,alas,I need to go into it one more time as the self timer is not tripping the shutter although it goes through the time cycle just fine.
I may have to redjust the shutter times again if I do much lubricating but they are within tolerance right now except for the 500 and 250 speeds which might never have been up to published speed if what I am reading is correct.Ron G
 
I agree Ron, just a pity that this information is not available at the moment. Only thing i could get out of their service manual is the fact that you have to stirr Lubricant A briskly before use. This indicates IMO that this is the most dilluted oil.

The Compur Rapid i'm working on sits on a Voigtländer Perkeo II. It is heavily overlubricated !Somebody thought probably that a shutter is like a cars gearbox and had poured oil inside. It almost drips from the shutter- and diaphragma blades ! So now i'm in the process of cleaning and then re-lubricating again.

Concerning the shutterspeeds. Deckel says that these fast speeds have tolerance limits of +/- 20%. So mostly that will be then the minus 20% ;-)
 
Both big German shutter makers (Deckel and Gauthier) were part of the Zeiss conglomerate, and might have sourced their greases internally - have you cross-checked whether any Zeiss manuals list greases with the same identification?
 
I also have some Pronto shutters that will likely need attention and I have the service manuals for those too but I have not spent very much time looking at them as I mostly have to be working on what I need info on or I don't retain too much of what I am reading🙂.
I am afraid that Henry Schrerer is not a familiar name to me but I will search him out if he can help the cause.This is info that could benefit a lot of people.I am sure that there are those that have the answers if we could know who to ask.Ron G
 
hanskerensky said:
I agree Ron, just a pity that this information is not available at the moment. Only thing i could get out of their service manual is the fact that you have to stirr Lubricant A briskly before use. This indicates IMO that this is the most dilluted oil.

The Compur Rapid i'm working on sits on a Voigtländer Perkeo II. It is heavily overlubricated !Somebody thought probably that a shutter is like a cars gearbox and had poured oil inside. It almost drips from the shutter- and diaphragma blades ! So now i'm in the process of cleaning and then re-lubricating again.

Concerning the shutterspeeds. Deckel says that these fast speeds have tolerance limits of +/- 20%. So mostly that will be then the minus 20% ;-)
Click to expand...

I have been thinking about the requirements to stir lubricant "A" and there is the possibility that they might be talking about a graphite solution.
Graphite has been sold for years to lubricate cables inside of flexible housings like the speedometer cable on an automobile.Graphite is a great lubricant but might not be so good inside of a camera as a powder but applied as a liquid with the liquid evaporating after application it might be satisfactory.
I would be interested in hearing others thoughts on the topic.
As for the shutter speeds tolerance about the best that I could do on the 1/500 setting was somewhat over 1/300...........usually 1/333 and it is pretty consistant at that speed.The 1/250 setting produced speeds just under 1/200,again,pretty consistant.I did record one and only one speed over 400 but I don't expect to see that again🙂 It will be interesting to see what my attempts at lubrication might change in the recorded speeds.It is so close now I am somewhat apprehensive to change anything.Ron G
 
Hi Ron,

I have read a great deal about the use of graphite in lubricating cameras on the internet. Have also read the books of Thomas Tomosy which advocates it but only in a special application procedure (with dillution in lighterfluid) which ensures that only minimal traces are left.

Still i have mixed feelings about the use of graphite. Many people warn about the problems you can get when the graphite migrates to i.e. the optics. I have not used it before but maybe will do a try-out on the shutter-blades of a spare Prontor. Shutterblades are probably the only place were it makes sense to use graphite lubrication as they have to be lightweight and have to move very fast with minimal resistance.

As i have until now disassembled only 1 Compur shutter i lack the experience to tell if traces of graphite can be found in unserviced Compurs. The Rapid i dismantled surely had no signs of it.
 
Hello Ron,

I've just cleaned a Compur Rapid of about 1955 vintage (my first) and I noticed when taking it apart that the lubricant in the positions indicated for "Schmierstoff A" certainly did look like graphite. I think that as well as the volatile solvent to make it flow there would have to be some sort of binding agent to keep it in place when it dried out. I think solvent mixed with graphite powder as advocated by Tomosy is a really BAD idea! Once it has dried, what you will be left with is just loose graphite powder floating around.

Steve.
 
hanskerensky said:
Never seen until now somebody writing about still using dilluted oil.
Click to expand...

I've tried it, dilluting a light gun oil with a lot of naptha and brushing it into the escapement and self-timer of a dial-set Compur. The stuff spread like crazy and it took me forever to get it off of the shutter blades. It wasn't one of my better ideas.

Grytpype said:
I think solvent mixed with graphite powder as advocated by Tomosy is a really BAD idea! Once it has dried, what you will be left with is just loose graphite powder floating around.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree. The only way I'd ever use graphite would be if it was in stick form (rubbed on) or if you rubbed it in and removed the loose powder. Applied like that, it stays where you put it. As a powder, it doesn't.
 
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FallisPhoto said:
I've tried it, dilluting a light gun oil with a lot of naptha and brushing it into the escapement and self-timer of a dial-set Compur. The stuff spread like crazy and it took me forever to get it off of the shutter blades. It wasn't one of my better ideas.



I'd have to agree. The only way I'd ever use graphite would be if it was in stick form (rubbed on) or if you rubbed it in and removed the loose powder. Applied like that, it stays where you put it. As a powder, it doesn't.
Click to expand...

I take out the escapement from a tired old compur shutter. Clean it well with lighter fluid. I then put a tiny bit of graphite powder (about a pile 1/4 inch in diameter) in a film canister 1/2 full of lighter fluid, slosh it around a bit and pour the whole thing over the escapement.

Let it dry for a few hours and bingo! It works well.
 
I've used a similar method to that suggested by FallisPhoto in auto-diaphragm SLR lenses to lubricate the outside edge of the plate which turns in the barrel to operate the diaphragm blades. First I put a little micronised graphite powder on a piece of paper and rub it well in, then rub the edges of the plate on the graphite so that it coats the metal where it is in contact with the lens barrel. Finally brush and vacuum off any loose powder. This seems to work well, particularly on a Pentacon 50mm/f1.8 which refused to work 'dry'.

On the Compur I've been working on I misunderstood its operation initially, and I've used a graphited grease (sparingly) on the centre of the tensioning ring. The shutter seems reasonably accurate, but from what I've read since, I think grease could affect the timing, and I plan to clean it off today and use the dry graphite method as above.
 
This is great input.I have read in these forums that some have used a lead pencil to apply the graphite where needed,this particular poster suggested using a "B" pencil for whatever reason.I do not have enough experience to make a valid judgement on this but I am inclined to want to try the graphite as a liquid in select places,you can still buy it I think as a lubricant for locks etc.Mostly what I want is to find out what was used originally and what was recommended by Deckel.
I happened to be talking with a gentleman from Germany on another matter and he was able to find out where Deckel went for me and I have a query posted to them on this matter.We shall see if I get a reply and if I learn anything from it.Of course I will share it here if I do.
I have acquired a few Bessamatics at fair prices and have opened up about three of them so far.One was a parts camera without question and it has already provided an escapement for my current camera as I broke the pin that sets the 1/15 shtter speed on the one I am working on.
I have taken them apart so many times now that I am not nervous about what I might get myself into and if I try anything and it does not work I don't mind starting over to do it right.
I am getting my courage up to try some liquid graphite and see what happens.The shutter leaves will remain dry as I don't want to deviate too much from the recommended procedures and cold weather performance is a consideration to me.Ron G
 
Ron G said:
This is great input.I have read in these forums that some have used a lead pencil to apply the graphite where needed,this particular poster suggested using a "B" pencil for whatever reason.I do not have enough experience to make a valid judgement on this but I am inclined to want to try the graphite as a liquid in select places,you can still buy it I think as a lubricant for locks etc.Mostly what I want is to find out what was used originally and what was recommended by Deckel.
I happened to be talking with a gentleman from Germany on another matter and he was able to find out where Deckel went for me and I have a query posted to them on this matter.We shall see if I get a reply and if I learn anything from it.Of course I will share it here if I do.
I have acquired a few Bessamatics at fair prices and have opened up about three of them so far.One was a parts camera without question and it has already provided an escapement for my current camera as I broke the pin that sets the 1/15 shtter speed on the one I am working on.
I have taken them apart so many times now that I am not nervous about what I might get myself into and if I try anything and it does not work I don't mind starting over to do it right.
I am getting my courage up to try some liquid graphite and see what happens.The shutter leaves will remain dry as I don't want to deviate too much from the recommended procedures and cold weather performance is a consideration to me.Ron G
Click to expand...

The graphite in most pencils is mixed with clay. If you're going to do it with a pencil, you need to go to an artist's store and look for a 9B, not just a B. The 9B is near enough to pure graphite as makes no difference; the others are not. Incidentally, woodless pencils are very good for this. A woodless pencil is just a thick rod of graphite.

The problem with putting any form of powdered graphite (or any other powdered lubricant) in a liquid carrier agent is that what happens when the liquid carrier evaporates is that it simply deposits tiny bits of loose graphite wherever it was you put it. Graphite doesn't dissolve in naptha (or anything else I can think of that isn't a strong acid), so it doesn't stick in a solid thin layer, it's just sitting on top of wherever you put it like sand sprinkled on a plate. First didsturbance, and it flies off. Eventually it will stick somewhere, when it finds a bit of grease or gets rubbed into something, but only god knows where that will be. If you're using graphite, you need to be able to rub the excess off.
 
Great thread! Fully illustrated "how-to-service-your-Compur" coming soon?

I've not yet opened up my shutter (Epsilon) for service, but I had planned to use some dry silicon lube. It comes as a spray aerosol. I thinks it's sometimes used as a non-stick coating for some types of moulding.
Several of the shutters that I have cleaned by flushing with lighter fuel etc, have had a little spray with this. In two cases I sprayed into a couple of gaps and then did one more brief flush to thin it and wash it in. I think it's better than the simple flush alone.

If washed in, it can leave a faint white finish on the aperture blades, so I wipe these when the flush is still wet.

Dave..
 
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This is all great stuff and I feel priveledged to have input from the professionals,this is good for us all.
I bought that CD on ebay that Bernard Mecking is selling and it is a worthwhile investment.There is no way that he could cover every single situation that you might encounter and I don't think that he intended it for the likes of me anyway but it is a very good tutorial with fabulous pictures on the overhaul of the Voigtlander Bessamatic and I would never have attempted the task without his CD to guide me.It is cheap and he also sells a Manual for the Compur shutters but as most will know you can download that on the internet if you need it.It is pretty handy to have on a CD and again.........very inexpensive to purchase.I am busy with other projects at the moment but hope to get back to the cameras in a few days.I had more time for things when I was working...LOL.Ron G
 
Here is the link to the Compur shutter repair manual.It has the lubrication instructions in it.
http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr//manuels_rep/obturateurs/Compur-shutter-repair-manual.html
I use Google to translate it to english as I do not read french.
I am hoping that I can improve the 1/250 and 1/500 speeds a little with proper lubrication.I got the grease and two different oils from the Nye company although I don't know that they are the correct ones but they are all synthetic lubricants and the grease is supposed to stay where you put it which is comforting🙂).I use a wooden toothpick to apply them as any dispenser that I have seen will not give me the control that I am comfortable with.Ron G
 
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