jjanek
Member
In several charts and tables I have found that instructions are for "small tank". Could be 5-reel tank (old manual Jobo 1000 series) considered small? Should I in some way alternate time or inversions compared to e.g. smaller two reel tank? Some tips or tricks?
Thanks everybody
Janek
Thanks everybody
Janek
Finder
Veteran
A small tank is what you have. Large tank would be commercial roll-transport or dunk-and-dip processors
MartinP
Veteran
Like Finder says, large tanks are/were used for submerging a cage containing many rolls, or sheets, film. Rather than putting the developer into the film-and-tank one puts the film into the developer-and-tank, for example. Agitation is by lift, drain and dunk, or by gas systems in the automated processing systems.
The system used for b+w in the lab where I worked 20 years ago had tanks with a capacity of 15 litres, and that would be about the smallest of that sort of system. The chemicals were monitored and replenished rather than used once only, so the whole system is ideal for large-ish volumes of film. Obviously, the whole thing would run in total darkness. Although there were a few attempts at making daylight systems I have never used one and these days they could be difficult to maintain.
The system used for b+w in the lab where I worked 20 years ago had tanks with a capacity of 15 litres, and that would be about the smallest of that sort of system. The chemicals were monitored and replenished rather than used once only, so the whole system is ideal for large-ish volumes of film. Obviously, the whole thing would run in total darkness. Although there were a few attempts at making daylight systems I have never used one and these days they could be difficult to maintain.
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oftheherd
Veteran
While the above is correct, but I seem to remember that small tanks were considered to be 3 or 4 roll size, and large up to 5 or 8. I don't recall the exact size on large tanks. I think in that case, they were actually intended to be used with inversion rather than dip and dunk. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. Also, to get more to the point of Jobo style processing, I think that has its own instructions on the amount of developer to use, and the tank's agitator provide the "inversions" so to speak. I haven't yet done roller processing so again, somebody who does correct me if I am wrong.
MartinP
Veteran
Not really. "Large" in the context of the chemical maufacturer instructions is measured in multiple gallons, rather than multiple rolls. In the 15 litre (about 3 1/2 gallons) tanks I used in one batch I could process twenty four rolls of film or 16 sheets of 5x4 - and those were not very large 'large' tanks. The dip-and-dunk 'large' machines for perfect E6 or C41 processing were much bigger and heavily automated.
The OP's Jobo tank is a hand-tank, not one of those used on the rotary agitation systems from Jobo.
The OP's Jobo tank is a hand-tank, not one of those used on the rotary agitation systems from Jobo.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I seem to remember that for "home processing" (not dip and dunk" systems) - the definition is that a tank with 1000 ml or less is defined as a "small" tank - while large is the 1500 ml and up sizes (any remember the 8 reel Paterson - or the 8 reel Nikkor/Kinderman's) - massive tanks and doing inversion agitation was like pushing weights in a gym!!!!
oftheherd
Veteran
Thanks, that was sort of where I was at also. 1000ml would be about 4 rolls, while 1500ml would be 6. I don't know why, but for some reason I was thinking it went up to 8 for large. But I never used one of those. I think the largest I ever used was a 3 or 4 reel tank. My memory on larger tanks is only from reading about it in magazines or books.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The distinction in most old photo books was between 'small tanks' (a few rolls of film) and 'deep tanks' where the film, on racks or hangers, was lowered into the tank. The terms 'large tank' (= opposite of small) and 'shallow tank' (= opposite of deep) rarely if ever appeared.
Three major differences are first, that with small tanks, the tank is normally filled and emptied, while the deep tank is left full and the film lowered into it (much faster, more even wetting); second, that with deep tanks, the developer is normally replenished so that it soon becomes 'seasoned' (quite high bromide levels) implying reduced true ISO but very high consistency; third, agitation is obviously very different, and this is why the manufacturers refer to 'small tanks', implying inversion or 'twiddle' agitation rather than raising/lowering the racks or using nitrogen burst. Deep tanks were normally covered with floating lids when not in use, and the developer might only be drained and replaced at astonishingly long intervals.
Obviously with multiple rolls the distinction starts to become blurred, but as there is no such thing in most of the literature as a 'large tank' you can make up any definition you like. Indeed, at Ilford, 'small tanks' were sometimes used like 'deep tanks': the tank filled, and the film dropped into it in the dark before the lid was put on. The important point is agitation, and that's the same for a 1-reel 'small tank' as for a 6-reel or 8-reel 'small tank'.
Cheers,
R.
Three major differences are first, that with small tanks, the tank is normally filled and emptied, while the deep tank is left full and the film lowered into it (much faster, more even wetting); second, that with deep tanks, the developer is normally replenished so that it soon becomes 'seasoned' (quite high bromide levels) implying reduced true ISO but very high consistency; third, agitation is obviously very different, and this is why the manufacturers refer to 'small tanks', implying inversion or 'twiddle' agitation rather than raising/lowering the racks or using nitrogen burst. Deep tanks were normally covered with floating lids when not in use, and the developer might only be drained and replaced at astonishingly long intervals.
Obviously with multiple rolls the distinction starts to become blurred, but as there is no such thing in most of the literature as a 'large tank' you can make up any definition you like. Indeed, at Ilford, 'small tanks' were sometimes used like 'deep tanks': the tank filled, and the film dropped into it in the dark before the lid was put on. The important point is agitation, and that's the same for a 1-reel 'small tank' as for a 6-reel or 8-reel 'small tank'.
Cheers,
R.
MartinP
Veteran
Drat, after a couple of decades I had already forgotten the name for the system I ran for years. Premature senility ? Possibly . . . 
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Drat, after a couple of decades I had already forgotten the name for the system I ran for years. Premature senility ? Possibly . . .
Dear Martin,
Sorry, you'd already made all the points (apart from the linguistic one about 'deep tank') but others were still trying to create distinctions that don't exist so I thought it best to re-state the same points you made -- and to emphasize the point about agitation.
Cheers,
R.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Kodak's PDF tech documents on their BW films and chemicals define a large tank as anything larger than 32oz.
Jaans
Well-known
I've always wondered - how did Winogrand get his film processed while he was still alive? I recall seeing something on youtube where there was an assistant who brought in some contact sheets for him to proof.
Do you think that it's possible this assistant slaved away hours on end hand processing Gary's film, or was it done with a large tank system with drain and dunk or gas? Also, how were those thousands of rolls processed after he passed away?
Do you think that it's possible this assistant slaved away hours on end hand processing Gary's film, or was it done with a large tank system with drain and dunk or gas? Also, how were those thousands of rolls processed after he passed away?
jjanek
Member
Thanks everybody, but what practical consequences should be - should I use it as any other "small" tank (e.g. two-reel) - it seems yes from Roger Hicks´ answer. On the other hand Tom´s definition (1000ml and less = small, 1500ml and more = large) doesn´t help, because my tank is 1250ml . Maybe the question should be made in another way - did anybody used this or similar kind of tank in "standard" way (filling with fluid, agitating according to "small tank" instructions, emptying the tank and so on..) and were negatives O.K.?
Janek
P.S.: I´m sorry, this could look dumb, but for me this is question of practical usage, not linguistic splitting hairs...
. Maybe the question should be made in another way - did anybody used this or similar kind of tank in "standard" way (filling with fluid, agitating according to "small tank" instructions, emptying the tank and so on..) and were negatives O.K.?Janek
P.S.: I´m sorry, this could look dumb, but for me this is question of practical usage, not linguistic splitting hairs
...Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Jenek,
Yes.Use it the same way. Long development times will minimize the effect of slow filling. And yes, I have done this with a 6-reel stainless tank.
Cheers,
R.
Yes.Use it the same way. Long development times will minimize the effect of slow filling. And yes, I have done this with a 6-reel stainless tank.
Cheers,
R.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
The figures you need are those for "small tank". Anything you are ever likely to use at home or in a pro photographers darkroom is a "small tank" - beyond volume (which was above 25l per stage on the large tanks I have handled) the difference is mostly a matter of agitation (nitrogen burst rather than movement), replenishment (constant process under chemical test control rather than batch-and-discard) and stable volumes (large processors need more test strips per day than most of us will process in films per day).
Large tanks held entire 135 films hanging down or on a endless belt, while small tanks hold films on reels or single sheet frames. All daylight screw-top tanks (Paterson, Jobo), rotary processors (Colenta, Jobo, including their biggest drums) and even desktop size large format tanks are "small". Endless and hanger processors (with man size standing tanks) are "large".
About the only time the large tank figures apply to photographers is when they use small sheet film tanks in a replenished eternal process rather than batch-and-discard - this almost behaves like large tanks (but is, thanks to the smaller volumes around 2l rather than 20l, less stable).
Large tanks held entire 135 films hanging down or on a endless belt, while small tanks hold films on reels or single sheet frames. All daylight screw-top tanks (Paterson, Jobo), rotary processors (Colenta, Jobo, including their biggest drums) and even desktop size large format tanks are "small". Endless and hanger processors (with man size standing tanks) are "large".
About the only time the large tank figures apply to photographers is when they use small sheet film tanks in a replenished eternal process rather than batch-and-discard - this almost behaves like large tanks (but is, thanks to the smaller volumes around 2l rather than 20l, less stable).
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jjanek
Member
Thanks a lot, this helps, and hint about longer development times (will 10+ minutes be enough?) is really useful (thank you Roger).
Janek
Janek
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Janek,
Sorry for mis-typing your name as Jenek! Pure typo.
Yes, 10+ minutes should be OK. With a tank that big I'd not go much below 10 minutes, though.
It is not a bad idea to have the tank charged with dev, and drop the spirals in (all at once, or as fast as possible) into the tank before you put the lid on.
Astonishingly, you can dump the dev with the lid on, remove the lid, and chuck in the fix in room lighting (faster filling). This used to be (and may still be, for all I know) an Ilford party-piece.
Cheers,
R.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Well, I sure am astonished, Roger! If only I'd known this when I first tried my hand at 120, with an adjustable reel, no 120-size tank at hand, and only one coffee can. Somehow I managed to do all the liquid exchanges in the dark without creating too much of a mess, though.
I'm sure this info is somewhere on your site, hee. But then I'm a tightwad and you only went free content recently.
ully
ully
What it means is..
What it means is..
that it is not as big as a large tank.
What it means is..
that it is not as big as a large tank.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
It is all but unbelievable, isn't it?
There are two possible explanations, which are not mutually exclusive. One is that the induction time for the new exposure is less than the time it takes to walk across the room, and the other is that the amount of developent in 5-10 seconds is negligible anyway.
As far as I am aware they only did this straight-to-fix, i.e. without stop bath. I don't think it is on the site, actually.
Cheers,
R.