What is a "rangefinder"?

[~martyn~]

I'm not only a dedicated rangefinder user (two Leicas and a Koni-Omega M), I'm also a UK-based editor who occasionally works on books about photographers and photography.

At the moment I'm editing a comprehensive book written by an American academic for the US market which is a general introduction to both the theoretical and the practical aspects of photography. The author describes several different "kinds" of camera, both film and digital, and in the small-format category she states that

"The main difference among small-format cameras is whether they are single lens reflex (SLR) or rangefinder ... All point-and-shoot compact cameras use a rangefinder viewing system."​

When I queried this, she replied

"I've read contradictory responses to the question of whether a ... point-and-shoot camera can be considered a rangefinder. For some, it seems that the superimposed images must be present for the camera to be considered a rangefinder. But many consider the electronic measuring device in a ... compact camera to be a rangefinder. I ... referred to the digital point-and-shoot as a type of rangefinder camera because the viewing lens is separate from the imaging lens."​

If I accept that we in Britain speak a different language to our American neighbours, am I wrong to insist that she limit the term "rangefinder" to those cameras which use the classic coupled rangefinder system upon which this forum is based? Advice welcome.

Martyn

 

[dmr]

In the vernacular, a "Rangefinder" (noun describing a type of camera) or a "Rangefinder camera" (adjective modifying the noun camera) is most definitely the two-image coincidence matching system.

I might argue that auto-focus P&S cameras often cannot be considered "rangefinders" because their focus mechanism does not measure distance (find range) but does such things as focuses for maximum contrast and such.

 

[RichL]

You are correct.

You are correct.

Some tech or definition slicer may (correctly) call a digital system a range finder. I think all us great unwashed recognize the two window thingy as a range finder camera and the others as point and shoots. 🙂

I recall a few heated debates decades ago about whether or not a SLR with split image focusing was a range finder or an SLR.

 

[thegman]

Even if you accept that a P&S "finds the range" it's certainly not a "rangefinder viewing system" surely?

 

[~martyn~]

Thanks, dmr, RichL and thegman. You're underlining my own opinion.

There may be other replies, and I might not get an opportunity to acknowledge them immediately; but they will be appreciated, do not doubt it.

Martyn

 

[dmr]

Let's see what TFD says on this:

range finder also range·find·er (rnjfndr) n.

Any of various optical, electronic, or acoustical instruments used to determine the distance of an object from the observer.

rangefinder adj.
rangefinder [ˈreɪndʒˌfaɪndə] n

1. (Engineering / Tools) an instrument for determining the distance of an object from the observer, esp in order to sight a gun or focus a camera

2. (Mathematics & Measurements / Surveying) another word for tacheometer

 

[Sparrow]

If you’re going to stretch the definition to an AF P&S then my granddad’s 6x9 Bessa and a tape measure is a rangefinder of sorts

 

[sevo]

Some tech or definition slicer may (correctly) call a digital system a range finder. I think all us great unwashed recognize the two window thingy as a range finder camera and the others as point and shoots. 🙂

I recall a few heated debates decades ago about whether or not a SLR with split image focusing was a range finder or an SLR.

If we consider AF cameras with telescopic finder rangefinders, it is hard to define the term so that it excludes AF cameras with a SLR finder - and if these are rangefinders too, so are SLR with triangulating focus aids like split image or microprism patches.

Sevo

 

[Gumby]

...she states that

"The main difference among small-format cameras is whether they are single lens reflex (SLR) or rangefinder ... All point-and-shoot compact cameras use a rangefinder viewing system."​

When I queried this, she replied

"I've read contradictory responses to the question of whether a ... point-and-shoot camera can be considered a rangefinder. For some, it seems that the superimposed images must be present for the camera to be considered a rangefinder. But many consider the electronic measuring device in a ... compact camera to be a rangefinder. I ... referred to the digital point-and-shoot as a type of rangefinder camera because the viewing lens is separate from the imaging lens."​

She is not totally wrong in her response about "rangefinder" but an academic should be open to the notion of modifier words to help clarify. It weems like an effort to be unnecessarily succinct is causing errors and confusion.

Suggest "manual/mechanical or optical rangefinder" camera for those with a manually controlled rangefinder device (coupled or not) versus an "automatic rangefinder mechanism" that are associated with autofocus cameras. Automatic rangefinders can be electronic... or they can be optical... or they can be acoustical.

With regard to point-and-shoot, there appears to be a total ommission of consideration for fixed-focus P&S or range-focus P&S cameras that were once commonplace.

 

[toylas]

I guess the only way to settle the issue is to stick to the technical definition. dmr has already posted the definition from The Free Dictionary. Here's what Wikipedia says:

A rangefinder is a device that measures distance from the observer to a target, for the purposes of surveying, determining focus in photography, or accurately aiming a weapon. Some devices use active methods to measure (such as sonar, laser, or radar); others, available since the nineteenth century, measure distance using trigonometry (stadiametric rangefinders and parallax, or coincidence rangefinders). They usually use a set of known distances or target sizes to make the measurement.
Rangefinders may be used by military or law enforcement snipers as a means of calculating the distance to the target to set up a perfect shot. The laser rangefinder is not always the best option though, as it sends out a light source that may give away the snipers' position.

As almost all the point and shoot camera's "rangefinders"/viewfinders can not give us information about the distance of the subject, I would not call them rangefinders if I were to stick to the definition.

BTW I used to stick to the sloppy definition until now that any camera that has a separate (coupled/uncoupled with the lens) viewfinder is a rangefinder. Almost like that lady. But your thread forced me to look up the exact definition and I agree with you.

Best,
Tulasi

 

[Sparrow]

That all well and good, but what is she then going to use the term Auto Focus for? surely that should be applied to cameras that find the range automatically, no?

 

[Gumby]

That all well and good, but what is she then going to use the term Auto Focus for? surely that should be applied to cameras that find the range automatically, no?

Interesting question. I wonder what she would say.

 

[mmabale]

Are you concerned that those reading this book will think less of us rangefinder shooters because we are lumped in with those lowly P&S shooters?

 

[Gumby]

Who ever said that P&S users were lowly?

 

[payasam]

"I ... referred to the digital point-and-shoot as a type of rangefinder camera because the viewing lens is separate from the imaging lens."

The chief distinction is between TTL and non-TTL viewing, and the point-and-shoot with an optical view-finder is clearly a descendant of the Leica type of camera design.

 

[mmabale]

Who ever said that P&S users were lowly?

Cheekiness is hard to convey over the interwebs I guess. 🙂

Still, that fact that thread was started, one could imply that the OP is offended by RF being grouped together with P&S.

Frankly, I don't care what people think about my gear. I'd much rather they focus on my results than my equipment (among which I own and love several P&S's).

If a reader never gets past this "misleading" information, who cares? I'm sure they will be "corrected" in good time if they ever run into the RF gang. :bang:

 

[~martyn~]

Cheekiness is hard to convey over the interwebs I guess. 🙂

Oh, there's nothing wrong with a bit of cheek -- stops everything getting too serious.

Still, that fact that thread was started, one could imply that the OP has a problem with RF grouped together with AF-P&S.

No, in a general context, the OP has no problem with this. He's (I'm) not an elitist. (After all, even though I have an M6, by far my preferred 35mm camera is my CL, which most people here wouldn't give house-room to.) In the specific context of a textbook, though, I do think it's necessary to avoid potential confusion.

However, my original question was to do with differences between UK and US interpretations of the term.

 

[migtex]

Does it means that a rangefinder camera must only be manual operated?
An Autofocus rangefinder is out of the "Rangefinder" scope (like a Nikon TI35) just because they are called P&S?

 

[radi(c)al_cam]

Well, my mother tongue is neither the British, nor the US English, but IMHO both the definitions I have found authoritative support the OP.


A. "rangefinder." Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. 2010.
Merriam-Webster Online. 17 March 2010
<http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rangefinder>

Main Entry: range finder
Function: noun
Date: 1872
1 : an instrument used in gunnery to determine the distance of a target
2 : a surveying instrument (as a transit) for determining quickly the distances, bearings, and elevations of distant objects
3 : a usually built-in adjustable optical device for focusing a camera that automatically indicates the correct focus (as when two parts of a split image are brought together)


B. "range finder." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2010. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 17 Mar. 2010 <http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/491131/range-finder>.

any of several instruments used to measure the distance from the instrument to a selected point or object. One basic type is the optical range finder modeled after a ranging device developed by the Scottish firm of Barr and Stroud in the 1880s. The optical range finder is usually classified into two kinds, coincidence and stereoscopic. (...)

 

[Gumby]

Oh, there's nothing wrong with a bit of cheek -- stops everything getting too serious.

Agreed. I'm a big fan of cheekiness!