narsuitus
Well-known
I was under the impression that a point and shoot camera was one you could pick up, aim at a subject, and take a picture without focusing, or determining the exposure, or advancing to the next shot.
If this is true, can a manual focus camera (rangefinder, SLR, or anything else) and a scale focus camera really be called point & shoot?
If this is true, can a manual focus camera (rangefinder, SLR, or anything else) and a scale focus camera really be called point & shoot?
Sparrow
Veteran
No, no! sentence first - verdict afterwards ...
photogdave
Shops local
Sounds like she's confusing rangefinder cameras with what we used to call viewfinder cameras.
Pablito
coco frío
That's just plain wrong. As someone has already implied, what about "focus-free" or scale focus cameras. They have no device to measure deistance at all. The term should be "viewfinder cameras."
karoron
Newbie
Gosh, maybe there is something I can contribute as my first post on the rangefinder forum.
The classic definition of "rangefinder" has already been quoted earlier in the thread.
As it applies to gunnery, photography, and so on, is has traditionally been defined as a trigonometric solution to the distance question.
As a registered land surveyor (thirty years on) and probably the only one on the board, and also being retired from the company which first introduced trigonometric range finding in a 35mm camera around 1932, I can testify to that.
The Leica II, the Contax I, and all of the derivatives use a short base triangle located within the body of the camera to provide a trigonometric solution to the distance issue.
I consider this the classic definition of "rangefinder" as it applies to cameras.
Later varieties of distance measuring which use lasers, infrared, etc. and anything requiring electricity do not meet the definition of "rangefinder" in the classic trigonometric definition.
As a surveyor, I have used lasers and phase shift infrared to measure distances since the 1970's. That was not "rangefinding".
The classic definition of "rangefinder" has already been quoted earlier in the thread.
As it applies to gunnery, photography, and so on, is has traditionally been defined as a trigonometric solution to the distance question.
As a registered land surveyor (thirty years on) and probably the only one on the board, and also being retired from the company which first introduced trigonometric range finding in a 35mm camera around 1932, I can testify to that.
The Leica II, the Contax I, and all of the derivatives use a short base triangle located within the body of the camera to provide a trigonometric solution to the distance issue.
I consider this the classic definition of "rangefinder" as it applies to cameras.
Later varieties of distance measuring which use lasers, infrared, etc. and anything requiring electricity do not meet the definition of "rangefinder" in the classic trigonometric definition.
As a surveyor, I have used lasers and phase shift infrared to measure distances since the 1970's. That was not "rangefinding".
Roger Hicks
Veteran
In The Rangefinder Book I took care to distinguish between 'rangefinder' and 'direct vision' cameras (such as current Alpa) and noted that the G1/G2 are not true rangefinder but interchangeable-lens autofocus cameras.
What does the 'American academic' make of TLRs and view cameras? Are they rangefinders or SLRs?
Cheers,
R.
What does the 'American academic' make of TLRs and view cameras? Are they rangefinders or SLRs?
Cheers,
R.
btgc
Veteran
I think, some people just use word "rangefinder" as synonym to "vintage". As long as their audience recognizes author means "bull" when he says "horse" or vice versa, they are fine 
Sparrow
Veteran
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Maybe in English. In German, no distinction is made, any distance measuring device is a "Entfernungsmesser".
radi(c)al_cam
Well-known
Of course, you are both right
Sevo, your german example can help to comprehend the meaning of the term "Range-Finder", but, there is a semantic error to avoid:
-- the german meaning of "Entfernungs-Messer" is not as narrow as "rangefinder only", in fact its meaning is the equivalent of a "tele-meter" (cf. above)!
-- conclusion: the english rangefinder is so to say "a tele-meter which is manufactured for or to put on/in a photographic instrument"
oftheherd
Veteran
While that may be true, the OP was asking about a book written in USA English.
I think that is important: You took care to make a distinction. The author the OP is referring to has not apparently made any distinctions as to different types of cameras but simply tried to state that all cameras fall into two groups. Not correct.
There have been a lot of definitions of "rangefinder" given. When the definition applies to cameras, in common usage, it refers to a coincidence type rangefinder; not laser, not IR. That is so whether or not the camera is fixed lens or interchangeable lens.
I think the author the OP is referring to needs to explain more, or if she has, the OP needs to tell us that. If I were using the textbook as written, I would have to point out to the students that it was in error, and give the common definition. If any students wanted to shartshoot, I would repeat my definitions, and tell them when IR (or other "rangefinding" method, not coincidence) is used, then again, commonly we use IR as a modifier. That is, an IR rangefinder. But frankly, in cameras, I don't consider them rangefinders in the classic sense. I grant they measure distance and software in the camera will set the lens to a distance based on that.
But if they are rangefinders, why don't we ask the head bartender to set up more forums for all the cameras so far discussed, and invite all but viewfinder camera users in? Anybody seriously beleive that should be done?
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oftheherd
Veteran
Well, if is just simulation, then it just a toy--real rangefinder users don't simulate, we assimilate.
Until the electronics go out!
But aren't we just playing with words for the sake of argument or pleasure, not helping the OP? (Of course I guess we all do that from time to time and it isn't all bad. Is it?
)Finder
Veteran
I am not sure I am convinced that an automatic system that uses coincidence is somehow less of a rangefinder that uses coincidence manually. I also would question why rangefinders would be limited to simply the visual spectrum.
I am also not sure how common the term "IR rangefinder" is...
micromontenegro
Well-known
The operative word here is "viewing". I can certainly be argued that autofocus is some kind of range finding system, but it does not relate to viewing.
So, what does she make of a TLR? She shouldn't be writing about cameras, IMHO :bang:
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sevo
Fokutorendaburando
The term was commonly used in geodetics and ballistics at least a century before the first photographic applications of on-camera rangefinders.
And telemeter as a term for "distance-metering device" is archaic and uncommon - usually it refers to "metering at a distance".
Sevo
radi(c)al_cam
Well-known
Sevo, thank you -- you have read my encyclopedic quotes more exactly than I did, now I will be more precise:
"conclusion: in context with photography, the english rangefinder is so to say "a tele-meter which is manufactured for or to put on/in a photographic instrument"
better?
oftheherd
Veteran
What automatic systems use coincidence? Don't most use contrast or timing? I don't think IR rangefinder is common. A good point against IR being a component of anything called a rangefinder.
Sparrow
Veteran
[tone= thinly-veiled-sarcasm] It would seem we have proved her to be correct, well done chaps … I’m looking forward to the book now, it could prove to be an authority.[/tone]
Martyn; You deserved a more considered response, not this angles on pinheads stuff.
Expensive.
Fuchs
Well-known
In Spanish exists a clear distinction between cameras which use an optical rangefinder and any other means of distance measuring (be it passive infrared AF to scale-focusing):
any camera without TTL view are considered "Visor Directo" (Direct VF) cameras, while those using an optical RF are called "Telemétricas". Sadly, in the last times, and mostly due to internet culture/language contamination, both terms get to be confused.
any camera without TTL view are considered "Visor Directo" (Direct VF) cameras, while those using an optical RF are called "Telemétricas". Sadly, in the last times, and mostly due to internet culture/language contamination, both terms get to be confused.