leica IIIc stepper, one red curtain

[dexdog]

I have a question for the leica folks. I bought a camera recently on ebay because I wanted the lens attached to it, a WW2-era collapsible CZJ 50/2 Sonnar in LTM. Upon removing lens, I noticed that the first shutter curtain on the camera is red, while the second one is black (curiously, the seller did not mention this). I own another IIIc stepper like the current one, same curtain arrangement; first red, second black.

I have searched on the inter-tubes, and have found a couple of sites that say the red/black pair is typical, while a couple of other sites say that both curtains were probably red originally. Anyone have an opinion on the matter?

BTW, the collapsible 50/2 lens on the current camera, produced in 1942 in Contax mount according to Thiele, looks almost identical to my other collapsible 50/2 in LTM, recorded in Thiele as manufactured in 1947 in LTM by CZJ. Given the similarities in design, engraving and assortment of metals in the mount, it sure looks like both lenses were produced by the same factory.

I will probably sell the camera bodies on eBay, given that I am not a leica guy.

 

[enasniearth]

red curtains

red curtains

both curtains are red - the trailing one has the black side faceing out , you should be able to see the red edge of the curtain where it is wrapped around the metal pull and sewn . they are aways one red out one red towards the film . what are the serial numbers ? you can delete the last two numbers as people often do here .

 

[dexdog]

Serial numbers are 3663xx and 3718xx

 

[photovdz]

typical combo... a wartime leica with a wartime sonnar...
I had the same adventure with a sonnar 1,5 that came with a RC stepper as surprise gift... came from an american military...
what is the serial number of the lens ?

 

[dexdog]

typical combo... a wartime leica with a wartime sonnar...
I had the same adventure with a sonnar 1,5 that came with a RC stepper as surprise gift... came from an american military...
what is the serial number of the lens ?

Red T, serial number 2710478

 

[CameraQuest]

I have searched on the inter-tubes, and have found a couple of sites that say the red/black pair is typical, while a couple of other sites say that both curtains were probably red originally. Anyone have an opinion on the matter?

Ask this in the next Mentor's forum which will soon be announced. He knows this stuff inside-out.

Stephen

 

[ferider]

Have heard rumours about that, and think it's great, Stephen.

RFF has changed a lot in the last few weeks - thanks a lot for that.

Sorry Mark, no other contribution to your thread.

 

[enasniearth]

red curtain types

red curtain types

of the 39,000 wartime type cameras with step the majority (i think 24,000)were the red curtain type . over the years many have lost the red curtain through repair/replacement . at one point i have heard leitz pulled the red curtain on any camera serviced by them . many cameras have deteriated shutters some 65 years later . it is like the k curtain type with a white k -- perhaps one in three have the original curtain .
first -- left camera with good curtain / right has deteriation - no longer useable
second - shutter partially cocked showing both curtains
third - only one curtain with black side out showing folded stitched edge of red-
rest of red curtain faces rear of camera
hope this helps -- sorry for poor quality digital pictures .

 

[dexdog]

second - shutter partially cocked showing both curtains

enasniearth, my two cameras look exactly like your second image.

OK, now that the shutter curtain matter has been settled, what can you tell me about the 5cm f3.5 Elmar seen in the attached photo? Serial number from the front edge of the dark brass ring closest to the front lens element is 132087. A search of the inter-tubes suggests that this lens was produced in 1932. BTW, the focus lock at the 1PM position on this lens makes it a real PITA to use, given that one's fingers are often in the way of the rangefinder windows.

 

[enasniearth]

elmar

elmar

it looks like the focus would interfere with the rf port as rotation would go towards the slow speed dial .
does this lens mount the same on both bodies ?
if so it is the lens
if not your camera may have the screw flange installed improperly .
on the chrome lens flange there is a small line painted in black on the outer rim . this should face towards the left ( slow speed dial side ). once had a leica with the flange off by 90 degrees so a similiar problem .
i think in 1932 everything was hand fitted so anything is possible

 

[LeicaTom]

i think in 1932 everything was hand fitted so anything is possible

Yes, that's true, try screwing another Elmar on the camera, if it looks the same then the lens flange is or has been put on wrong, I had a IIIC K one that had that problem, just a couple of screws and it was fixed.

Good luck with the sales on ebay, if you get me the serial numbers of the two cameras I might be able to get you the delivery dates on them if possible?

Tom

 

[dexdog]

Tom, serial numbers on the cameras are 366364 and 371879.

Thanks.

 

[dexdog]

it looks like the focus would interfere with the rf port as rotation would go towards the slow speed dial .
does this lens mount the same on both bodies ?
if so it is the lens
if not your camera may have the screw flange installed improperly .
on the chrome lens flange there is a small line painted in black on the outer rim . this should face towards the left ( slow speed dial side ). once had a leica with the flange off by 90 degrees so a similiar problem .
i think in 1932 everything was hand fitted so anything is possible

I tried the Elmar on both of the red curtain IIIc' s and on a Canon IIF2- the infinity lock is in the same place on all cameras. Also, I checked for the black mark on the lens flange, and it faces the slow speed dial on both leicas. I am guessing that it must be the lens is set up to work that way.

 

[dexdog]

A couple of pictures of the collapsible LTM Sonnars. Lens on left is 1942 manufacture in Contax Mount according to Thiele. Lens on right is 1947 manufacture in LTM according to Thiele.

 

[photovdz]

sadly the red curtain fabric is very prone to problem, turns into a rubbery glueing mess... darks spots and so on... it's probably why Leica changed the curtains in all cameras coming for repair...

As for the sonnars, these are two nice lenses... and I'm sure that the production numbers where mixed chronologically at some point... some 285xxxx were issued before the end of the war...
As for your 1942 one, it's typical, most of the sonnars I know in LTM were issued as contax mount then changed in LTM...getting rid of the contax mount is very easy...

 

[RF_newbie]

A couple of pictures of the collapsible LTM Sonnars. Lens on left is 1942 manufacture in Contax Mount according to Thiele. Lens on right is 1947 manufacture in LTM according to Thiele.

Very nice lenses.
Dex would you show me the auction, or numbers you purchased those from, i would really like to see them.

 

[dexdog]

the auctions no longer show up on eBay. The 1947 lens came from Portugal-based seller telemetro, who often has interesting stuff. The 1942 lens came attached to one of the red-curtain cameras-bought the camera because I wanted the lens, didn't know the curtain red at the time.

 

[Luddite Frank]

enasniearth, my two cameras look exactly like your second image.

OK, now that the shutter curtain matter has been settled, what can you tell me about the 5cm f3.5 Elmar seen in the attached photo? Serial number from the front edge of the dark brass ring closest to the front lens element is 132087. A search of the inter-tubes suggests that this lens was produced in 1932. BTW, the focus lock at the 1PM position on this lens makes it a real PITA to use, given that one's fingers are often in the way of the rangefinder windows.

The "1 o' clock" infinity lock is unusual. Early LTM lenses had it at "11 o' clock", and moved it to " 7 o 'clock" when the model III was introduced in 1933.

I have nickel Elmar 5 cm "11 o' clock" s/n 99xxx that came with my black Leica II, s/n 77xxx; both camera and lens date to 1932.

If this lens mounts the same way on other LTM cameras, then the anomaly is with the lens ( any tool marks indicating that it has been worked-on ?)

If other LTM mount this camera body with their Inf Locks pointing to 1 PM, then the anomaly is the camera body...

 

[dexdog]

If this lens mounts the same way on other LTM cameras, then the anomaly is with the lens (any tool marks indicating that it has been worked-on ?)

I looked at the lens, and the slot on the small flat screw-head next to the infinity lock is nicked up. Also, the chromed post that stops the focus at infinity was loose, not even screwed in tight. Removed both screws and completely unscrewed the lens barrel from the mount. Cleaned out a bunch of fossilized grease, and carefully re-threaded the barrel onto the mount. Guess what? The infinity lock is now at 7 o'clock, and it is seven o'clock on the other red-curtain IIIc, a Canon P and Yashica YF. As a bonus, the lens indicates the correct distance on the distance ring (meters), when focused on target at measured distances. Infinity focus, based on a utility tower about 1/4 mile away, is also at infinity on the distance scale. I compared the same measured distances against a canon 50/1.8 that I know works well, and indicated distances on the two lenses correspond well.

Who knows, maybe it is correctly oriented now. The infinity lock engages just fine now, where previously it did not quite catch perfectly.