White dots, black dots, need help

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ulrich.von.lich

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Hello,

The 2nd roll of film I developed by myself didn't turn out well. I'm attaching a few images, as you can see:

- White dots are present on every frame
- Black dots are present on some of them
- Large vertical white strips on every frame

The first roll I developed last week was spotless. This time I used the same chemicals, same tank, same agitation.. same everything except the combination of dilution/time/temperature.

Last time: TRIX + DDX, 1:9, 400ISO, 12 mins, 22C
This time: TRIX + DDX, 1:4, 400ISO, 8 mins, 20C

They were both provided by digi truth dot com.

I may need to mention that it was the first test roll of a cheap Leica M2 I bought on eBay. So could it be the shutter curtain? It's always a bad idea to modify more than one variable at a time. Now I don't know where the problems come from.

Any idea?

Best Regards,
Tony

PS: Photos

1. Negative
neg.jpg


2. It's snowing.
1.jpg


3. Look at the top of the image, the space behind the trees is now complete black???
2.jpg


4. Black dots too!
3.jpg
 
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Two problems here. 1- The dots on your images look like mold has attacked your film. 2- The streaks are fogging - most likely caused by leaking film cassette end caps that don't fit tight. Problem is not with the camera.

Are you using bulk loaded film, or were these from rolls that you got with the camera? Go buy a fresh roll or two and try again. You'll be fine. Your 4th image (the one with the dog in the left hand corner) actually is attractive with the dots. Sorta like a Man-Ray shot. Good luck !
 
The waves look like horribly uneven developing. What tank / spool are you using, and was the film loaded correctly?

The white spots (in the positive) could be either a whole lot of dust, or mineral deposits from tap water, or silver deposits from used fixer (but if you only used the fixer for one roll previously, that is unlikely).

The black spots could (maybe) be holes. I don't know. What are you using for stop bath? I use water, but I understand that people who use acid baths sometimes get pinholes. The other option is dust on the film. If it was sheet film, I would say scratched emulsion or dust prior to exposure. Dust in 35mm is far less common, though.

Typically, the edges of the film should also be developed so that the writing is visible. if they are not this could be either a loading or agitation issue.
 
Bubbles on the film, bromide drag and not enough developer in the tank to start with ….

PS did you wash and rinse the tank properly when you last used it, you certainly have a spectacular looking error, and yes one variable at a time is good practice
 
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ulrich.von.lich said:
Hello,

The 2nd roll of film I developed by myself didn't turn out well. I'm attaching a few images, as you can see:

- White dots are present on every frame
Click to expand...

These have the appearance of localized overdevelopment. This can happen when powdered developers are mixed at too low a temperature and some of the developing agent fails to properly dissolve. It can also happen when concentrated liquid developers are stored at too low a temp and crystals form.

- Black dots are present on some of them
Click to expand...

?? Some particle that is blocking developement or a crystal of pure fixer that is excessively fixing (bleaching) a small spot. ??

- Large vertical white strips on every frame
Click to expand...

Quite likely caused by grossly excessive agitation causing surge (greater development along the lines of the current flow).
 
Dwig said:
Quite likely caused by grossly excessive agitation causing surge (greater development along the lines of the current flow).
Click to expand...

Or in some cases, not enough agitation.

Any of the above explanations sound plausible. Mold, wet film, etc. One thing to me that points to dodgy development, possibly in addition to something else, is the uneven development/fixing of the film rebate where the edges are. Unless those areas are fully fixed - then maybe it's a light leak from loose end caps. I can't tell from the photos if that's undeveleped and unfixed emulsion (grayish) or exposed, developed, and fixed emulsion (black).
 
TWoK said:
This is what happens when film gets wet. Don't ask me how I know. If the film was dunked in water, rained on or in an extremely humid environment this is exactly what you will see. It most likely has nothing to do with your developing or your camera.
Click to expand...

Concur. I have seen this myself.

By the way, some of the examples you show look magical. Like the attack of the faeries.
 
Thank you very much for the inputs. I have learned a lot here.

Some additional information:

- The roll of TRIX was a fresh, unexpired, well preserved stock. They have never given me any problem.

- It's only my second roll and I hadn't recycled anything so everything was fresh. I have washed the Patterson single 35mm tank with water after the last use.

- I think the film was loaded correctly. I can't explain the top and bottom edges. It also happened to my first roll, where the weird dots were however non-existing.

- I used acid stop bath. And it just happened that I might have put a little more white vinegar this time...

- Wet film? While it was in the camera? It shouldn't be my case. I loaded a new roll of TRIX, went out shooting, came back 3 hours later and developed it. It wasn't exposed to water. But I will remember not to let my films get wet.

- "localized overdevelopment". The DDX developer I have is in liquid form, and it has been stored in room temperature. However, after I had poured 100ml of DDX and 400ml of water (around 18C to 20C), I didn't stir it at all. Should I next time?

- "a crystal of pure fixer that is excessively fixing (bleaching)": I left the fixative in the tank, 6 minutes without agitation. I believe I have agitated last time. I didn't think it's important enough to be mentioned. On my "instructions" paper, I wrote down: "4 minutes with agitation, 6 minutes without"

- "grossly excessive agitation": I think I did it, but only during the washing (after fixing).


Now I tend to think the problems were due to the fixing and acid bath.

Thanks again!




PS: My "instructions" paper...

1. Development: pour the developer in the tank, top cover, then knock the tank to the surface a couple of times to prevent air bubbles, 20s of initial agitation, then 10s of agitation starting at the beginning of the second minute, repeat every minute

2. Stop Bath: Water with white vinegar, 2 minutes with continuous agitation. Then replacing the mixture with water, starting to prepare the fixative.

3. Fixing: TenenalSuperfixPlus:water 1:10, 4 mintues with agitation or 6 minutes without.

4. Washing: water only, 6 minutes, with continuous agitation.

5. Water with several drops of Tenenal Mirasol 2000 Antistatic, 30 seconds without agitation.

6. Water again.

Voila.

Anything unusual? Anything to improve?
 
1. Development: pour the developer in the tank, top cover, then knock the tank to the surface a couple of times to prevent air bubbles, 20s of initial agitation, then 10s of agitation starting at the beginning of the second minute, repeat every minute

2. Stop Bath: Water with white vinegar, 2 minutes with continuous agitation. Then replacing the mixture with water, starting to prepare the fixative.

3. Fixing: TenenalSuperfixPlus:water 1:10, 4 mintues with agitation or 6 minutes without.

4. Washing: water only, 6 minutes, with continuous agitation.

5. Water with several drops of Tenenal Mirasol 2000 Antistatic, 30 seconds without agitation.

6. Water again.

Voila.

Anything unusual? Anything to improve?
Click to expand...


1. Instead of agitating for 10 seconds maybe invert the tanks 2-4 times, within the 10 seconds.

2. Don't use stop bath, just use water.

And, regarding 6, afaik you don't water after the anti static.

martin
 
From the negs I would say the camera shutter is ok.

Problems may be:
1. Too much agitation -> Try slower inversions next time?
2. Not long enough in the fixer -> Fixer exhausted? Keeping it longer in the fixer?

These spots are mysterious. Got those once with a fresh developer solution. Attributed it to not fully dissolved developer, but ddx seems to be a concentrate. Impurities in the chemicals / tank?

Just my 2 cents...good luck!
 
I'm reading between the lines here, but you mention that the first roll of film was perfect and the second roll exhibits the problem. You also mention that the second roll was the first one through a "new" cheap M2. So, some possibilities remain that need to be eliminated.
It would appear that the first roll was taken with a different camera. Was it also taken with a different lens? I'm assuming that both films were the same, in that neither was out of date. Even if they were not past expiry, if they were stored badly it is possible that individual films could be affected whilst others were not - e.g. affected by heat/moisture/humidity/mould etc. Paris summers can be all of those things.
Did you acquire the second film with the M2 camera or did you buy the film recently from a recognised retailer?

Do you have another roll of unexposed film from the same source? Process that without exposing it in the camera and see if any of the same faults appear.

Others have asked about bulk loading and possible light leaks from the cartridges from that source. See my comments on 'light piping' below. It would be easy to create this condition if you are loading your own cartridges from bulk.

I think we can ignore the "powder" argument as DDX is a liquid developer.

I've seen similar (but broader) stripes on negatives resulting from excessive doses of x-rays at airports when film is passed through the checked baggage line. Is it at all possible that at some time one of these films was subjected to that situation?

However, what seems more likely is indicated by the darkened edges of the negatives. At first glance it looks like a processing fault but I think it might be what is known as "light piping". It occurs when light enters the edge of the film and actually traverses the film structure within the emulsion layer itself. What makes me think this is the case with your film is that you can see that the dark stripes only enter the image area where the film is unbroken by the perforations. In other words, the perforations broke the light path but where the film was not perforated the light continued on into the main film area.

But I wouldn't rule out processing or cleanliness errors either as I've sometimes seen darkened edges on my negatives similar to what you've shown, but without the stripes. In my case the edges were discoloured with a light grey/brown appearance with a similar pattern to yours and I put it down to the fixer not being cleared properly where the film was sitting in the grooves of the reel.

The black spots look like faults in the emulsion. Could be poor storage but more likely the effect of too-strong a stop bath or even contaminants in your water supply. Do you use tap water or filtered water? Is your tap water heavily chlorinated at times? Does it have a high mineral content? The pipes in Paris might have some interesting residues. I've had similar faults in Foma film recently and am ceasing use of the stop bath (as recommended by them and others) as it is known to cause these spots in older and softer type emulsions. That doesn't apply to Tri-X, I know.

So I think you might have a combination of problems here.
I'd try to eliminate some of the possibilities by first getting some fresh film so you know it's most unlikely to be old or badly stored film.
Second, I'd get a filter jug and prepare enough water for processing in advance and store it in glass (preferably) or plastic containers so you then know the water is as clean as you can get it.
Third, I'd scrupulously clean all your processing equipment including the grooves in the reels (a toothbrush will do nicely).

If it all works then you may not know which one was the problem but at least you'll know what to do to get a good result.
Oh - one more thing. Load your camera in subdued light. If some cartridges are faulty or the end caps don't fit well, then loading or unloading in bright light might be enough to cause at least part of the problem.

Apart from all that, I thought the "Chritmas Lights" effect was very charming!
 
Saw the additional posts when I sent mine.

My standard for tank development is - agitate for 30 secs. Thereafter agitate by inversion four times every minute.
Use water to rinse as a stop bath. Don't use an acid stop bath - sounds like yours was too strong anyway.
Fix for 2-5 minutes. I use 5 just to make sure, and I agitate for 10 seconds in every minute. I think leaving it stand without agitation is asking for trouble.
I wash by filling and emptying the tank five times and then leave it to wash for ten minutes minimum with a Paterson Force Film washer connected to the tank.
Eliminate step 6. You defeat the whole purpose of using the anti-static rinse. Might just as well stop at step 4 if you're going to do that.
 
Your agitation doesn't sound that extreme. Maybe a bit too little, maybe a bit too much, but it shouldn't have caused the problems that you are seeing.

I'd skip the stop bath. Fill the tank with water, agitated for 30 seconds, then fix. Agitated with the fix. I do 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off for 4 mins, but I'm sure you'd be fine with 10 seconds every minute or so.

Ditto on skipping the last step. The surfactant should come last.

Looking at the negatives (ignoring the spots), it looks like dark area at the edge of the film bleeds down in between the sprocket holes. That looks like a clue to me. Either a light leak or something else.
 
The stripes are perfectly aligned with the sprocket holes. That's gotta be a clue. I wonder if that supports the wet film hypothesis somehow. Like the film sticking to itself with each sprocket advance pull? I'm also inclined to think there could have been some particulate matter contributing to the spots.

Why not shoot a roll of Walgreens C-41 film and let them process it, just to make sure nothing's wrong with the camera.
 
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