P. Lynn Miller
Well-known
Keith,
I don't see film rising in price too significantly if the smaller producers become the primary producers. At the moment, in each roll of Kodak and Fuji film is the cost of the huge production lines slowing down. Mass production is only economical when you can mass produce. A film producer 1/100th the size of Kodak with a coating line that is 1/100th the size could be running their line 24/7 and making a good profit as well. Film production has to be rescaled to demand, which in the near term is going to be very painful for all involved and possibly terminal for some producers, resellers, and users as well.
I hardly buy any film locally, have no qualms about buying in bulk from the lowest bidder from wherever on the globe. The purchase of film from my local lab is not going to add as much to the bottom line as the profits from processing and printing all the film.
I don't see film rising in price too significantly if the smaller producers become the primary producers. At the moment, in each roll of Kodak and Fuji film is the cost of the huge production lines slowing down. Mass production is only economical when you can mass produce. A film producer 1/100th the size of Kodak with a coating line that is 1/100th the size could be running their line 24/7 and making a good profit as well. Film production has to be rescaled to demand, which in the near term is going to be very painful for all involved and possibly terminal for some producers, resellers, and users as well.
I hardly buy any film locally, have no qualms about buying in bulk from the lowest bidder from wherever on the globe. The purchase of film from my local lab is not going to add as much to the bottom line as the profits from processing and printing all the film.
Jaques H
-
That's a whole other issue.
(I think he actually enjoys it).I've heard this exact same thing from the two labs in my town.
Most often these moms and dads spend their working days in front of a computer monitor and don't want to continue at home.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Might pay to consider that Kodak aint the only player at the table
looking through the eyeglass in reverse only serves to give a narrow veiw of the world , aye
regards
Craig
True ... but in a word association test I'm sure that if you said the word 'Kodak' to nine out of ten people they'd think of film and if you said the word 'film' they'd think of Kodak!
I don't remember Paul Simon writing any songs about Agfa ... Kodak is ingrained in our subconcious as popular culture ... not just a product!
If they stop making film it would be like Coca Cola throwing the towel in!
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
OK ... so we've worked out that film will survive until these women have worn out the world's supply of point and shoots!
What happens then?
What happens then?
benlees
Well-known
Haven't these people used the Kodak/Fuji kiosks? Throw in your memory card, pick exactly which shots you want printed, and then wait a few seconds to pick them up at the bottom of the machine. About as easy as it gets. Some people like to do things the hard way, I guess.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
A friend of mine recently went to India for a couple of weeks and took a little Canon Ixus with her. She came back with a memory card with about two hundred images on it ... took it to the local Kodak one hour and got them to do two sets of 5x7 prints!
When she showed me the photos I was gobsamacked at how good they were and I think it cost her around $150.00 or less for the two sets. Barely a bad exposure and the colours were superb!
When she showed me the photos I was gobsamacked at how good they were and I think it cost her around $150.00 or less for the two sets. Barely a bad exposure and the colours were superb!
mathomas
Well-known
Luxury! You had a towel! I had a pair of me Mum's old underwear to wipe up with. And I 'ad no floorboard, nor motor. Used me feet to trundle about. Tyres were square. Lot of work that was, I tell you, to get to mill to work me 29-hour day.
And when I got home me Dad would slice me in two with a bread knife.
But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
(apologies to Monty Python)
btgc
Veteran
She is smart. Like all other people making prints. Most of people don't do backups of their files and after hard disk goes head down, prints is all they have. Making prints and spreading them among friends and relatives is even better.
Another case is if prints will last. Once I asked in minilab if prints made by kiosk are same as they do in big machines - no, they are different and are targeted at those wanting fast self-service. While I have heard big numbers about stability of prints made on Fuji's thick paper (how it's called, kind of Crystal-something?), I have no idea about kiosk-made prints.
coffeecircus
noob
i just ordered a bulk film loader, with two 100' ilford.
long live the film.
long live the film.
bwcolor
Veteran
I remember when we had a bread and separate milk delivery to our front door. Cherish the memories.
Digital is overwhelmingly popular with the public precisely because it is much easier to produce images of all sorts, including prints. My wife and friends send photos back and forth by Email. Supposedly, the number one camera format in Japan is the cell phone.
Film, vinyl records and carburetors still stir the hearts of a few. Always happy to hear about the few making a profit off these old, but wonderful technologies... Also, personally happy that I'm no longer trying to keep my Weber Carbs working together in my rag top Fiat.. wonderful car... Broke down twice between new in 1971 and my giving it up in 2006. That car would go any speed around any turn, but was a bit power limited... loved the Triumphs (on straight roads), English Ford Cortinas with Lotus power and the old German inverted bathtubs.
Digital is overwhelmingly popular with the public precisely because it is much easier to produce images of all sorts, including prints. My wife and friends send photos back and forth by Email. Supposedly, the number one camera format in Japan is the cell phone.
Film, vinyl records and carburetors still stir the hearts of a few. Always happy to hear about the few making a profit off these old, but wonderful technologies... Also, personally happy that I'm no longer trying to keep my Weber Carbs working together in my rag top Fiat.. wonderful car... Broke down twice between new in 1971 and my giving it up in 2006. That car would go any speed around any turn, but was a bit power limited... loved the Triumphs (on straight roads), English Ford Cortinas with Lotus power and the old German inverted bathtubs.
palec
Well-known
I might be wrong, but Ilford does not live primarily from movie industry. Yes, it's only B&W though... but with film stock in stores over the world. And prices are comparable to big names - Kodak and Fuji.
Ronald_H
Don't call me Ron
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If film shows sings of disappearing I'll buy a big freezer and fill it with film. That would last me the rest of my life. Problem solved.
Of course this will not work for Tom he would probably have to rent a warehouse ;-)
Of course this will not work for Tom
he would probably have to rent a warehouse ;-)ohoyer
Member
Film is definitly going stronger by now. In german Aphog Forum was also some recent diskussion about this. Statement from a company: They (especially B/W) sell more volume than past years. But as most point-and-shoot people nowadays do not shoot the cheapest whitelabelled film anymore, but use their el cheapo digicams or cams in the mobile phone, sales of consumer grade film is nearly extinct. So the big companies try to reduce production capacity (which is in case of the big ones not that easy, as a big machine cannot be downsized) and phase out the no longer asked for consumer products. Smaller companies like Efke in Croatia are a bit better off, as they never upgraded to big machinery, there they still have those 50 Liter Buckets for emulsion production, which will be sufficient for one charge of a certain film, that can last for a years sales...
Efke also does production according to specifications and produces brands like Adox films, so that they can max out their production capacity.
Statement was that professional grade film is going way better now, sometimes with problems getting stuff in time. Recently, there is some problem gettin some Fuji stuff to stock up- not because its phased out, but in higher demand as produced/on delivery to germany...
Also, at least in german internet forums, you see that some people are coming to analog photography after having done digital as entry, and are now happy to scrap some highend analog Equipment from ebay and shoot good photos as well.
In fact there is also some new development in films going on- for old Agfa APX there are two designated successors, that are going to be sold now, that were recently developed, there are new types of eco friendlier developers arount (e.g. Moersch eco-Line, Spur developers or some recently formulated Rollei brands) so film is not dead yet.
Efke also does production according to specifications and produces brands like Adox films, so that they can max out their production capacity.
Statement was that professional grade film is going way better now, sometimes with problems getting stuff in time. Recently, there is some problem gettin some Fuji stuff to stock up- not because its phased out, but in higher demand as produced/on delivery to germany...
Also, at least in german internet forums, you see that some people are coming to analog photography after having done digital as entry, and are now happy to scrap some highend analog Equipment from ebay and shoot good photos as well.
In fact there is also some new development in films going on- for old Agfa APX there are two designated successors, that are going to be sold now, that were recently developed, there are new types of eco friendlier developers arount (e.g. Moersch eco-Line, Spur developers or some recently formulated Rollei brands) so film is not dead yet.
kuzano
Veteran
Freezing A$$ Side Curtains....
Freezing A$$ Side Curtains....
Over a matter of a decade in the 70's, owned a TRII, TR3, TR4, TR4A-IRS, and two TR6's. (Used to rebuild and restore UK cars)
The point about the roll-up windows is one of the more memorable occasions in my early years. Going to night school and driving a car with sliding plexi side curtains and the entry by cable INSIDE the door, made icy, rainy, snowy winter nights miserable when the plexi sliders froze in the tracks.
I thanked the brits for finally discovering roll-ups and outside door handles... (discover, because I know they didn't invent them and were last to adopt them).
Loved my Triumphs all, including the Triumph Trophy T25W 250cc thumper (one cylinder) motorcycle built on the 441 trials frame.
Freezing A$$ Side Curtains....
Over a matter of a decade in the 70's, owned a TRII, TR3, TR4, TR4A-IRS, and two TR6's. (Used to rebuild and restore UK cars)
The point about the roll-up windows is one of the more memorable occasions in my early years. Going to night school and driving a car with sliding plexi side curtains and the entry by cable INSIDE the door, made icy, rainy, snowy winter nights miserable when the plexi sliders froze in the tracks.
I thanked the brits for finally discovering roll-ups and outside door handles... (discover, because I know they didn't invent them and were last to adopt them).
Loved my Triumphs all, including the Triumph Trophy T25W 250cc thumper (one cylinder) motorcycle built on the 441 trials frame.
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Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Those good old days! They will never come back and we should probably be grateful for that. Though, to bring it back to topic - I am old enough to remember Tri X with Kodak rating it at 200 and it cost $0.99/roll ( and who cared that your behind was wet from a soggy seat - we looked sooo cool in our Tr3's!!!
Spyro
Well-known
I see that a lot too. I cant measure how big is this trend or what kind of impact it might have to global production levels, but it is definitely there. When I mention film to people starting out, I often get the same response: "not yet". They want to experiment for free and shoot a lot until they sort of know what to expect, before they start paying for every frame they shoot. It makes sense.
People crave cameras that simply have no digital equivalent yet (and probably never will): medium format RFs, cheap old Leicas and Bessas, Hexars, Contax G's, panoramics, Holgas, full frame pocket cameras, large format etc. DSLRs are awesome, but they are... DSLRs. You get bored after a while.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
There is a resurgence of film use - but mainly in the hands of photographers who do it for the love of the medium - not for a living. Today you have to shoot digital in the "real world" - which is fine and it makes sense. Images downloaded via the net, instant feed back and easy distribution. It is image making pure and simple. If I had to shoot for a living again, I would be completely "pixilated" with DSLR's, lap tops, phones etc, but I am happy to say I don't have to and, truly, don't want to either.
In the end it doesn't matter what you shoot with as it is the image that counts!
Digital has also been around long enough that people are finding out about the less savory parts. Storage and access, brutal depreciation of equipment, huge learning curves for new technology every 6-12 months. Too much time spent editing and culling massive files. Where we used to shot 4-5 rolls on a job, now there are 1000's of exposures to weed through and sort out. Time is money and sometimes I think the savings in film and processing is eaten up by the time in front of a computer screen.
Kodak did "blow up" the old Kodak Park - but they built a brand new film coating plant a couple of years ago. I don't know if this is "hope over experience" or dumb luck on Kodak's part - but they are selling a lot of film these days. They have the process down pat - and they know how to make film and sell it for a profit as does Fuji and Ilford. Yes, the sales volume is down from the "good old days" - but there are still customers who are willing to pay today's premium prices for plain Tri X/Hp5/NP 400.
Color is probably more difficult to assess. The "mom's" with the P/S 24 exposure are but a small part of a market - and I dont know how much color film is sold to the higher volume users.
What I am seeing and hearing is a sort of "hybrid" workflow. You shoot color, usually C41, hand the film in for processing, get prints and scans on a DVD at the same time. The small lab I use here in Vancouver for my odd forays into color say that this is now the common order.
I hope that this trend keeps up - at least for black and white in my case. My freezer can hold about 2000 rolls of film and I would hate to have to get another one just for film storage!
I just took part in a small exhibition here in Vancouver - 5 photographers with 8 prints each. My 8 spanned about 20 years (1991-2010). It took me less than 5 minutes to pull the negatives for my selection, hand them to the local bl/w printer expert and pick them up 4 days later, knowing that they were done as well as could be - better than I could have anyway.
Had this been digital, I am doubtful as to how easy it would have been to access the files and in what condition they would have been.
Yes, we should all re-format, multiple hard drives etc - but how many of us would do it - and, if it had been required from our negative files to do so - how much of our past would be accessible today!
Go Film Go!!!
In the end it doesn't matter what you shoot with as it is the image that counts!
Digital has also been around long enough that people are finding out about the less savory parts. Storage and access, brutal depreciation of equipment, huge learning curves for new technology every 6-12 months. Too much time spent editing and culling massive files. Where we used to shot 4-5 rolls on a job, now there are 1000's of exposures to weed through and sort out. Time is money and sometimes I think the savings in film and processing is eaten up by the time in front of a computer screen.
Kodak did "blow up" the old Kodak Park - but they built a brand new film coating plant a couple of years ago. I don't know if this is "hope over experience" or dumb luck on Kodak's part - but they are selling a lot of film these days. They have the process down pat - and they know how to make film and sell it for a profit as does Fuji and Ilford. Yes, the sales volume is down from the "good old days" - but there are still customers who are willing to pay today's premium prices for plain Tri X/Hp5/NP 400.
Color is probably more difficult to assess. The "mom's" with the P/S 24 exposure are but a small part of a market - and I dont know how much color film is sold to the higher volume users.
What I am seeing and hearing is a sort of "hybrid" workflow. You shoot color, usually C41, hand the film in for processing, get prints and scans on a DVD at the same time. The small lab I use here in Vancouver for my odd forays into color say that this is now the common order.
I hope that this trend keeps up - at least for black and white in my case. My freezer can hold about 2000 rolls of film and I would hate to have to get another one just for film storage!
I just took part in a small exhibition here in Vancouver - 5 photographers with 8 prints each. My 8 spanned about 20 years (1991-2010). It took me less than 5 minutes to pull the negatives for my selection, hand them to the local bl/w printer expert and pick them up 4 days later, knowing that they were done as well as could be - better than I could have anyway.
Had this been digital, I am doubtful as to how easy it would have been to access the files and in what condition they would have been.
Yes, we should all re-format, multiple hard drives etc - but how many of us would do it - and, if it had been required from our negative files to do so - how much of our past would be accessible today!
Go Film Go!!!
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
This post by Tom should be engraved on a brass plaque and mounted on our walls.
It's the most rational informed statement about the film verses digital debate I've ever read!
Tom ... you're my hero!
T
tedwhite
Guest
A few years back I suggested to the head of the Art Department at the local community college that I thought a class entitled Introduction to Black and White Film Photography might actually go. He was skeptical, but included it anyway in the catalog for the next semester's offerings. It maxed out enrollment the first day of class registration. In teaching the class I learned that these young people considered shooting film - and especially developing and printing - an esoteric art!
They were all thumbs at first but eventually got the hang of spooling film onto reels, mixing chemicals, and ending up with proper negatives. The same with learning to operate enlargers and making decent prints. At semester's end we had a show in the student union and it was fun to see the whole north wall covered with their photographs and all the rest of the students on campus spending time looking at them.
After two years I turned the classes over to two very competent newspaper photographers from the local press and now there is a three-semester sequence of b/w classes, plus a digital photography class using Photoshop CS and Lightroom 2.
I guess my point here is that, though I had a wild hunch a class in film might be popular, I didn't anticipate how popular.
As for the cars, I had a TR-2 in 1961 while living in a California furnace known as the Imperial Valley (mostly below sea level). That large hump between driver and passenger known as the transmission would - when the outside temperature in daytime reached 120F - get so hot that on a 30 minute drive to a nearby town my girlfriend passed out and I had to rush her to the hospital.
I don't think Triumph had a clue that their cars would be driven in such climates and in so doing destroy a budding romance.
They were all thumbs at first but eventually got the hang of spooling film onto reels, mixing chemicals, and ending up with proper negatives. The same with learning to operate enlargers and making decent prints. At semester's end we had a show in the student union and it was fun to see the whole north wall covered with their photographs and all the rest of the students on campus spending time looking at them.
After two years I turned the classes over to two very competent newspaper photographers from the local press and now there is a three-semester sequence of b/w classes, plus a digital photography class using Photoshop CS and Lightroom 2.
I guess my point here is that, though I had a wild hunch a class in film might be popular, I didn't anticipate how popular.
As for the cars, I had a TR-2 in 1961 while living in a California furnace known as the Imperial Valley (mostly below sea level). That large hump between driver and passenger known as the transmission would - when the outside temperature in daytime reached 120F - get so hot that on a 30 minute drive to a nearby town my girlfriend passed out and I had to rush her to the hospital.
I don't think Triumph had a clue that their cars would be driven in such climates and in so doing destroy a budding romance.
flip
良かったね！
Hah. Film isn't dying, it just wants to return home to be with its close friends, Nikon, Leica, Canon, ....