johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Time and time again a gentleman named George Carr pops up in the threads on collectable Leica LTM camera's.
Some of you apparently have first hand experiences from encountering this Leica restorer/forger, others know a good deal about the man and his endeavours into real and unreal Leica-dom.
I am neither, so tell me: Who was George Carr and what was his significance to Leica LTM camera collectors?
Any good stories? Any pictures of George Carr restored/converted cameras would be nice, too...
Some of you apparently have first hand experiences from encountering this Leica restorer/forger, others know a good deal about the man and his endeavours into real and unreal Leica-dom.
I am neither, so tell me: Who was George Carr and what was his significance to Leica LTM camera collectors?
Any good stories? Any pictures of George Carr restored/converted cameras would be nice, too...
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LeicaTom
Watch that step!
George Carr was a famed Scottish Leica repairman and restorer of the 1960`s and 70's
He was one of the first people to play around with restoring Leica's back to original looking condition, he also restored a few cameras for the LEICA MUSEUM and he also had some articles written about him, in the old Leica Photography magazines of the 1960's.
He was not a forger, he did`nt sell his restored cameras as originals, but as restored, and labeled them as such, he was often backlogged with work, and now these "restored"cameras have a following of their own, also any good eye can tell the difference, he restored cameras well, but the look of the cameras was also something of his own will and style, it was his own "labor of love" for the Leica.
His best efforts were with Black painted cameras, he tried to restore the WW2 era Grey paint cameras, but was'nt personally satistifed with the results, so after about 10 or 20 cameras he quit doing them.
He also made "fantasy" cameras like the Sand Beige "Afrika Korps" IIIC and also IIIC K Grey with selftimers etc. etc. Mostly just for laughs
Supposedly he baked the camera bodies in his mother's toaster oven? I imagine there's lot's of funny stories about him, I wonder if Malcom Taylor knew him? ~ I'm sure there's a few Leica people in the UK who can shed some light on George's history as well?
He passed away I think sometime in the 1980's or 90's, there's nothing really about him anywhere online, and I know what I know about him, while his name was rather big back in the 80's when people talked about restoring Leica's, or who's restored them, also his cameras were popping up from time to time for sale, and they bring a certain bidder/buyer to the table and prices can be a little bit crazy
I owned a 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey that he restored in the 1960's for Leica Photographer Everret T. Brown, Brown used the Leica often and as I acquired it, it had a very nice patina, the paint was dead on correct hue, but what Carr didn`t like about his Grey piant was it was glossy, and that's what made it stand out from the original Luftwaffe paint.
The camera was a real collector's item, original matching numbers Elmar lens and body crate, it was issued to a US Army Lieutenant Colonel on the 8th of May 1945, it was one of the FIRST Leica's ever sold to the US Army at Wetzlar. ~ I used the camera for over a year as a daily shooter until I traded it for my M8
Enjoy!
Tom
He was one of the first people to play around with restoring Leica's back to original looking condition, he also restored a few cameras for the LEICA MUSEUM and he also had some articles written about him, in the old Leica Photography magazines of the 1960's.
He was not a forger, he did`nt sell his restored cameras as originals, but as restored, and labeled them as such, he was often backlogged with work, and now these "restored"cameras have a following of their own, also any good eye can tell the difference, he restored cameras well, but the look of the cameras was also something of his own will and style, it was his own "labor of love" for the Leica.
His best efforts were with Black painted cameras, he tried to restore the WW2 era Grey paint cameras, but was'nt personally satistifed with the results, so after about 10 or 20 cameras he quit doing them.
He also made "fantasy" cameras like the Sand Beige "Afrika Korps" IIIC and also IIIC K Grey with selftimers etc. etc. Mostly just for laughs
Supposedly he baked the camera bodies in his mother's toaster oven? I imagine there's lot's of funny stories about him, I wonder if Malcom Taylor knew him? ~ I'm sure there's a few Leica people in the UK who can shed some light on George's history as well?
He passed away I think sometime in the 1980's or 90's, there's nothing really about him anywhere online, and I know what I know about him, while his name was rather big back in the 80's when people talked about restoring Leica's, or who's restored them, also his cameras were popping up from time to time for sale, and they bring a certain bidder/buyer to the table and prices can be a little bit crazy
I owned a 1945 Leica IIIC K Grey that he restored in the 1960's for Leica Photographer Everret T. Brown, Brown used the Leica often and as I acquired it, it had a very nice patina, the paint was dead on correct hue, but what Carr didn`t like about his Grey piant was it was glossy, and that's what made it stand out from the original Luftwaffe paint.
The camera was a real collector's item, original matching numbers Elmar lens and body crate, it was issued to a US Army Lieutenant Colonel on the 8th of May 1945, it was one of the FIRST Leica's ever sold to the US Army at Wetzlar. ~ I used the camera for over a year as a daily shooter until I traded it for my M8
Enjoy!
Tom
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LeicaTom
Watch that step!
There's a 36' 250 Reporter GG that George painted in the early 1970's ~ it sold at auction for a hair under $6,000 a few years back.......
His Black Lacquer paints were really something else, I think someone at the factory said the finishes were BETTER quality than the originals, I think they are amazing, the workmanship he put into each of the Black paint cameras speaks for itself here
I've seen some of the IIIC's he painted black and they were really outstanding, one of those would make a real conversation piece ~ Black paint and sharkskin combo
Enjoy!
Tom
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rlouzan
Well-known
http://www.theleicasociety.org.uk/home.php
Quote:
Supposedly he baked the camera bodies in his mother's toaster oven? I imagine there's lot's of funny stories about him, I wonder if Malcom Taylor knew him? ~ I'm sure there's a few Leica people in the UK who can shed some light on George's history as well?
Quote:
Supposedly he baked the camera bodies in his mother's toaster oven? I imagine there's lot's of funny stories about him, I wonder if Malcom Taylor knew him? ~ I'm sure there's a few Leica people in the UK who can shed some light on George's history as well?
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
PAN-F,
that is one great write-up. I understand better now.
Seems this thread might be a nice place to accumulate some of the stories on mr. Carr and shots of the cameras he restored?
that is one great write-up. I understand better now.
Seems this thread might be a nice place to accumulate some of the stories on mr. Carr and shots of the cameras he restored?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
By coincidence, this thread started when I was in Scotland, only a few miles from where George Gordon Carr used to live (which was at Crosslees by Johnston) and where I paid him quite a few visits in the early 1970s, long before he was married, though even then he was not a young man. Given that these events are now almost 40 years in the past, there are inevitably things I've forgotten -- I don't recall his being a heavy smoker, for example -- but I still have quite a few fairly vivid memories of him.
He was an enthusiast for all things mechanical. I really impressed him once when he was on the lookout for a Merlin engine. I mentioned this at dinner the next day, and my father said, "Would a Griffon be all right?" The Royal Navy was breaking a fast patrol boat which had two Griffons. I mentioned this to George the day after ("Sorry, can't find a Merlin, is a Griffon OK?"), and he eventually bought them. He was also fascinated by firearms.
George's restorations often took a very long time, because he set his priorities according to how well he liked you. The same job could take anything from 2 weeks to 2 years, the former if he liked you and you lived nearby, the latter if he thought you were a rich twit. He always had fantastic quantities of Leicas lying around: I remember ten or fifteen 250s in a row on his sideboard, and he once took a 250 to Photokina to take reference shots, on order to avoid having to reload. He once threw me a Model B (Compur) he'd received from an American customer for restoration: as far as I recall, he had two or three Bs at the time, too.
He made a lot of 'funnies', of which my favourite was his Afrika Korps IIId, finished in desert sand. Unlike some UK repairers/restorers/dealers, he took good care that his 'funnies' should not be mistaken for the real thing, at least by anyone who bothered to look for his signature. And indeed, the paint was baked in his mother's oven, though I'm not sure what a 'toaster oven' is. It was a surprisingly common brand of paint, though at this remove, I've forgotten what it was. The engravings were not however filled with Woods metal (the late Colin Glanfield was responsible for that innovation) but painted white, which always gave George's 'restorations' ('recreations') might be more accurate) a look of their own. As far as I recall I first met him through Williamsons of Sauchiehall Street, alas long departed (as is Charles Frank of the Saltmarket); Williamsons used him for repair and restoration.
George was almost entirely nocturnal (not difficult in Scotland in winter, but almost impossible in summer). The legend -- I never asked him -- is that he used to be a staff photographer for Shell, but they got sick of night shots. I normally went to see him after dinner, and on the occasion he threw me the B he was just tying his tie after getting up for the night. I'm not sure I ever even met his mother, who apparently went to bed as George was getting up. The stairs in her/his house were extremely unusual: divided down the middle by a plank running up the stairs, with the right and left treads alternating, so that the right tread ended half-way between two left treads, and vice versa.
He was indeed very important in the early days of Leica collecting, but I lost track of him after my parents left Gourock in 1973, and since then, all I have is hearsay, like everyone else.
Cheers,
R.
He was an enthusiast for all things mechanical. I really impressed him once when he was on the lookout for a Merlin engine. I mentioned this at dinner the next day, and my father said, "Would a Griffon be all right?" The Royal Navy was breaking a fast patrol boat which had two Griffons. I mentioned this to George the day after ("Sorry, can't find a Merlin, is a Griffon OK?"), and he eventually bought them. He was also fascinated by firearms.
George's restorations often took a very long time, because he set his priorities according to how well he liked you. The same job could take anything from 2 weeks to 2 years, the former if he liked you and you lived nearby, the latter if he thought you were a rich twit. He always had fantastic quantities of Leicas lying around: I remember ten or fifteen 250s in a row on his sideboard, and he once took a 250 to Photokina to take reference shots, on order to avoid having to reload. He once threw me a Model B (Compur) he'd received from an American customer for restoration: as far as I recall, he had two or three Bs at the time, too.
He made a lot of 'funnies', of which my favourite was his Afrika Korps IIId, finished in desert sand. Unlike some UK repairers/restorers/dealers, he took good care that his 'funnies' should not be mistaken for the real thing, at least by anyone who bothered to look for his signature. And indeed, the paint was baked in his mother's oven, though I'm not sure what a 'toaster oven' is. It was a surprisingly common brand of paint, though at this remove, I've forgotten what it was. The engravings were not however filled with Woods metal (the late Colin Glanfield was responsible for that innovation) but painted white, which always gave George's 'restorations' ('recreations') might be more accurate) a look of their own. As far as I recall I first met him through Williamsons of Sauchiehall Street, alas long departed (as is Charles Frank of the Saltmarket); Williamsons used him for repair and restoration.
George was almost entirely nocturnal (not difficult in Scotland in winter, but almost impossible in summer). The legend -- I never asked him -- is that he used to be a staff photographer for Shell, but they got sick of night shots. I normally went to see him after dinner, and on the occasion he threw me the B he was just tying his tie after getting up for the night. I'm not sure I ever even met his mother, who apparently went to bed as George was getting up. The stairs in her/his house were extremely unusual: divided down the middle by a plank running up the stairs, with the right and left treads alternating, so that the right tread ended half-way between two left treads, and vice versa.
He was indeed very important in the early days of Leica collecting, but I lost track of him after my parents left Gourock in 1973, and since then, all I have is hearsay, like everyone else.
Cheers,
R.
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ZeissFan
Veteran
He sounds like an interesting fellow with skills that were appreciated and understood. It sounds like he had a good wit that sometimes showed up in his work. Great stories here about him.
HarryW
Established
Roger,
Didn't know that you were a local lad.
Williamson and Wolfe disappeared about 1998 - they were next to Charing Cross mansions, two minutes from my office. I remember buying a lovely Black Nikkormat EL and a 35 mm f2.8 from them for my daughter before she went to study architecture.
I'm not sure when Charles Frank shut up shop, however I'm sure my noseprint could still be found on their window. I went to night classes three nights a week in the late sixties / early seventies and always passed their shop in the Saltmarket and the content of their window could certainly take your mind off the subject at hand.
Quiggs in Parnie St has re-opened under new management as Merchant City Cameras however now that I have obtained my lifelong ambition of an M2 I no longer feel the need to visit such places and be parted very easily with the contents of my pooches.
Regards
Harry
Didn't know that you were a local lad.
Williamson and Wolfe disappeared about 1998 - they were next to Charing Cross mansions, two minutes from my office. I remember buying a lovely Black Nikkormat EL and a 35 mm f2.8 from them for my daughter before she went to study architecture.
I'm not sure when Charles Frank shut up shop, however I'm sure my noseprint could still be found on their window. I went to night classes three nights a week in the late sixties / early seventies and always passed their shop in the Saltmarket and the content of their window could certainly take your mind off the subject at hand.
Quiggs in Parnie St has re-opened under new management as Merchant City Cameras however now that I have obtained my lifelong ambition of an M2 I no longer feel the need to visit such places and be parted very easily with the contents of my pooches.
Regards
Harry
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
In several posts I read about mr. Carrs 'signature', a mark left on cameras he restored/revived.
What does that mark look like?
Oh, and I'd so much like to know that brand of paint, aren't there any people that might know it left to ask?
What does that mark look like?
Oh, and I'd so much like to know that brand of paint, aren't there any people that might know it left to ask?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
@ Harry: Not local: I'm a Cornishman. But my father was in the navy. In the late 60s and early 70s it was the Royal Yacht (where I drank Champagne on my 16th birthday), then Bermuda, then Southampton, then Clydeside, then Chatham... If I'd known Quiggs had reopened I'd have been there last week, though I'd forgotten exactly where they were. But even Quiggs was a poor substitute for Charles Frank. EDIT: I was living in Cambridge in about '73 or '74 when Campkins was still worth seeing and I went once or twice to Marston and Heard in London...
@ Johan: George's 'signature' varied. Normally there was something on or around the accessory shoe that wasn't kosher Leica: a number or letters.Sorry, I've forgotten the details. It wasn't obvious unless you were a Leica addict. The paint was really common -- maybe even Dulux.
Cheers,
R.
@ Johan: George's 'signature' varied. Normally there was something on or around the accessory shoe that wasn't kosher Leica: a number or letters.Sorry, I've forgotten the details. It wasn't obvious unless you were a Leica addict. The paint was really common -- maybe even Dulux.
Cheers,
R.
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john neal
fallor ergo sum
Oooh! Harry, is the new Quiggs as good as the old? I used to work for Scottish Power and had to visit Glasgow regularly, and a visit to Quiggs was generally engineered into the day somehow
@ Roger - it wasn't Tekaloid (sp?) was it? I repainted a Humber in that a long time ago - super shiny finish from a brushed enamel.
@ Roger - it wasn't Tekaloid (sp?) was it? I repainted a Humber in that a long time ago - super shiny finish from a brushed enamel.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear John,
No, it was a REALLY ordinary paint. Wish I could remember!
Cheers,
R.
No, it was a REALLY ordinary paint. Wish I could remember!
Cheers,
R.
john neal
fallor ergo sum
Roger,
Not (gulp) Humbrol?
Not (gulp) Humbrol?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear John,
Not THAT ordinary...
Cheers,
R.
Not THAT ordinary...
Cheers,
R.
je2a3
je
This thread is a great read about an obscure fellow with significant achievements!
Thanks!
Thanks!
john neal
fallor ergo sum
Roger,
I have been trying to think of the household names in paint from the 60's - Dulux and Crown are still around, but Permoglaze and Pammastic have gone (I think). Amazing how quickly we forget, isn't it?
Dralowid
Michael
Tecaloid (Tetrasyl?)I dimly remember but not sure about the spelling
Winfield (from Woolworths) did a fetching purple
Valspar, John, surely you haven't forgotten that one!
Joy in small tins (sounds akin to a narcotic)
Brushing cellulose came from...ICI...wonder what became of them?!
Duco...or was that Aus only
Must be others, much of this is still on the shelf in my garage, solid now but those tins have become old friends.
Michael
Winfield (from Woolworths) did a fetching purple
Valspar, John, surely you haven't forgotten that one!
Joy in small tins (sounds akin to a narcotic)
Brushing cellulose came from...ICI...wonder what became of them?!
Duco...or was that Aus only
Must be others, much of this is still on the shelf in my garage, solid now but those tins have become old friends.
Michael
Roger Hicks
Veteran
May have been Valspar!
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
john neal
fallor ergo sum
Of course - Valspar! My dad used that quite a lot for the woordwork.
I remember doing aircraft models with Joy too - happy days!
Duco I'm not sure of - I might be thinking of a laxative here?
What about Manders?
Michael Markey
Veteran
Was that the shop on Trinity street ? I remember it in `73. My recollection is that the prices were pretty much the same as they are now but that can`t be correct.
Best
Michael