andersju
Well-known
I noticed that Dante Stella has a new piece up titled That Leica CLA Culture. It's about how the "CLA fixation", generating "a massive number of completely pointless repairs", is damaging in several ways. Thoughts?
That Leica CLA culture
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ferider
Veteran
Dante's right. I think there are two issues related to CLAs, Leicas, and the current repairer back-logs:
.) camera trading combined with CLA per trade.
.) M8/M9 "focus shift"
Roland.
.) camera trading combined with CLA per trade.
.) M8/M9 "focus shift"
Roland.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The whole CLA thing started to gather momentum in the 90s, mostly among paranoid amateurs. Before that, a few professionals believed in regular servicing, and most didn't. The fact that the ones who didn't were still able to earn a living is something of a clue.
Some so-called CLAs are pretty nasty anyway: a sluice out with solvent followed by drowning everything in (usually unsuitable) oil. A true strip, clean and overhaul (everything brought back within manufacturers' tolerances, worn parts replaced, etc.) cannot be done for the prices some people charge.
Cheers,
R.
Some so-called CLAs are pretty nasty anyway: a sluice out with solvent followed by drowning everything in (usually unsuitable) oil. A true strip, clean and overhaul (everything brought back within manufacturers' tolerances, worn parts replaced, etc.) cannot be done for the prices some people charge.
Cheers,
R.
I never had anything CLA'd. My M4's lower speeds are off and I just compensate. I'm too cheap for the CLA culture.
I hate hazy viewfinders. A CLA on a working RF with a Hazy viewfinder makes it much more enjoyable to use. I do not send my cameras in just for the sake of it- but a Hazy viewfinder, I want it cleaned. On most cameras, I just do it myself.
anu L ogy
Well-known
Thats one of those things that is really funny, sad, and true all at once.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I agree on the hazy finder. With old Leicas, the finders are often hazy, so I send most I buy for a CLA.
swoop
Well-known
I dropped mu 35mm Summicron IV and had it repaired and CLA'd as well as my 75mm 'Lux that developed a squeak in the aperture ring. Both came back looking and working absolutely new.
But I do think a lot of people are getting them done unnecessarily and for some reason CLA has become some sort of selling pitch that suddenly makes a lens/camera more valuable. Like a guarantee it will work like new.
But I do think a lot of people are getting them done unnecessarily and for some reason CLA has become some sort of selling pitch that suddenly makes a lens/camera more valuable. Like a guarantee it will work like new.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Having the camera 'mucked out' when it's in for repair makes eminent sense: half the work has to be done anyway, just to get to and effect the repair. I've had all kinds of overhauls done when a camera has to go in anyway, but equally, I've never sent a functioning camera in for a 'CLA'.
Incidentally, can anyone on this thread suggest what a fair price might be for completely stripping, cleaning and overhauling (say) an M2? Properly, not just a solvent-and-oil job? It must be quite a few hundred dollars to bring it back to factory specs and guarantee the repair. It is entirely possible, in fact, that it might equal the sale price of the camera. This is, as far as I am aware, what Leica charge...
Cheers,
R.
Incidentally, can anyone on this thread suggest what a fair price might be for completely stripping, cleaning and overhauling (say) an M2? Properly, not just a solvent-and-oil job? It must be quite a few hundred dollars to bring it back to factory specs and guarantee the repair. It is entirely possible, in fact, that it might equal the sale price of the camera. This is, as far as I am aware, what Leica charge...
Cheers,
R.
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Mephiloco
Well-known
I only send my M2 in when it needs repairs, which, unfortunately, is more often than any other camera I've ever owned. I've just bought a Bessa to use, because honestly, the cost of a bessa and an ultron is less than that of a Leica repair.
I've not had a CLA done on the M2, though I've had to have the rangefinder arm completely replaced after the camera hit me in the hip while I was running on set with it around my neck, and now the viewfinder has to be completely replaced after the m2 hit pavement from about 1 foot. Once Don gets around to repairing my M2, I'll have spent more on repairs than I did on the camera in the first place, which I find funny considering how many people (here especially) have disparaging things to say about modern digital camera and their build quality (or supposed lack thereof). I've had zero problems with my DSLR (which is now old and outdated) despite it having been dropped and kicked around and having been left in a car during New Orleans summers. My Leica, supposedly the pinnacle of mechanical precision, has died from blows a mid range point and shoot could withstand.
In brief, I get my things fixed as they need it.
I've not had a CLA done on the M2, though I've had to have the rangefinder arm completely replaced after the camera hit me in the hip while I was running on set with it around my neck, and now the viewfinder has to be completely replaced after the m2 hit pavement from about 1 foot. Once Don gets around to repairing my M2, I'll have spent more on repairs than I did on the camera in the first place, which I find funny considering how many people (here especially) have disparaging things to say about modern digital camera and their build quality (or supposed lack thereof). I've had zero problems with my DSLR (which is now old and outdated) despite it having been dropped and kicked around and having been left in a car during New Orleans summers. My Leica, supposedly the pinnacle of mechanical precision, has died from blows a mid range point and shoot could withstand.
In brief, I get my things fixed as they need it.
bigeye
Well-known
There was a camera listing last week touting a recent CLA that caught my attention. One of the photographs showed a huge thumb print on a shutter leaf. It might not affect operation, but can you imagine seeing the simian overhauler's finger print every time you glance at the lens? Best work, that.
I had an overhaul done by Youxin to the IIIf when the shutter got sticky in cold weather, but wouldn't send anything off that wasn't failing.
What is nice about the Leicas (and most other 'good stuff') is that it is repairable. Not too many products from the 50's can still race against 2010 technology...
- Charlie
I had an overhaul done by Youxin to the IIIf when the shutter got sticky in cold weather, but wouldn't send anything off that wasn't failing.
What is nice about the Leicas (and most other 'good stuff') is that it is repairable. Not too many products from the 50's can still race against 2010 technology...
- Charlie
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
There is overemphasis on CLA's. Mine go in for a service when something is acting up that affects the picture taking. If not - I keep using them until something does!
In the 60's I used M's for press work. underpaid and overworked, CLA's were few and far between. It was often cheaper to pick up another body, than to have an existing body fixed. A lot of shooters were switching to Nikon SLR's and sold of their M's cheap (bl.p M4's $80, bl.p M2 from $60 and M3's were about the same). I used to pitch 'dead" bodies in a box and in mid-80's I dragged these cameras from Sweden in "bundles" of 5 and had them fixed and traded them or sold them. In direct $ it looked good, but I got about what I paid for them in 1960's $.
I kept some, a bl.p M2 and some M3's. Still works after having shutters replaced.
If a camera works, keep on using it until it doesn't - the cost of fixing something minor is usually 30-40% of a full overhaul anyway, so you might just as well justify it.
Leica is fairly unique in high priced gear as there are still Mint, boxed, unused etc. cameras around, these have sat in boxes for 20-30 years and everything is getting "gummed" up. Thats when you need a lube-job and, if unlucky, a shutter blind replecement as the compound on the cloth can dry out and crack.
When I get a new "used" body - I shoot a couple of rolls with it, cycling through all the speeds. It they are OK - I keep using it. If there are issues with them, I have them adjusted. If everything sounds dry and squeeky, an oil-change. If finders are dim or out of whack, beyond "self-fix" - I usually abstain, unless the price is good enough to have a full repair done.
Some years ago I picked up a M2 (surprise!) in Germany. I checked the shutter and it was dragging badly at 1 sec and capping at 1/250 and above. No big deal, I assigned it to a 21mm VC and used it in the functional range for 3 weeks and then had it adjusted when i came home.
One problem is statements "Just returned from CLA" and subsequent price hike. Fine, if it is accompanied by an itemized invoice, stating what was done and by whom.
Yes, if I find a camera that has a recent overhaul done by Jerry at Kinderman, DAG or Sherry - WITH said invoice copy - I would trust it and be willing to pay the extra.
Most of our cherished M's (M2/M3/M4/M5) are getting on in years and some kind of service could be needed - but if it works when it ends up in your hand, just keep using it until it really needs it!
In the 60's I used M's for press work. underpaid and overworked, CLA's were few and far between. It was often cheaper to pick up another body, than to have an existing body fixed. A lot of shooters were switching to Nikon SLR's and sold of their M's cheap (bl.p M4's $80, bl.p M2 from $60 and M3's were about the same). I used to pitch 'dead" bodies in a box and in mid-80's I dragged these cameras from Sweden in "bundles" of 5 and had them fixed and traded them or sold them. In direct $ it looked good, but I got about what I paid for them in 1960's $.
I kept some, a bl.p M2 and some M3's. Still works after having shutters replaced.
If a camera works, keep on using it until it doesn't - the cost of fixing something minor is usually 30-40% of a full overhaul anyway, so you might just as well justify it.
Leica is fairly unique in high priced gear as there are still Mint, boxed, unused etc. cameras around, these have sat in boxes for 20-30 years and everything is getting "gummed" up. Thats when you need a lube-job and, if unlucky, a shutter blind replecement as the compound on the cloth can dry out and crack.
When I get a new "used" body - I shoot a couple of rolls with it, cycling through all the speeds. It they are OK - I keep using it. If there are issues with them, I have them adjusted. If everything sounds dry and squeeky, an oil-change. If finders are dim or out of whack, beyond "self-fix" - I usually abstain, unless the price is good enough to have a full repair done.
Some years ago I picked up a M2 (surprise!) in Germany. I checked the shutter and it was dragging badly at 1 sec and capping at 1/250 and above. No big deal, I assigned it to a 21mm VC and used it in the functional range for 3 weeks and then had it adjusted when i came home.
One problem is statements "Just returned from CLA" and subsequent price hike. Fine, if it is accompanied by an itemized invoice, stating what was done and by whom.
Yes, if I find a camera that has a recent overhaul done by Jerry at Kinderman, DAG or Sherry - WITH said invoice copy - I would trust it and be willing to pay the extra.
Most of our cherished M's (M2/M3/M4/M5) are getting on in years and some kind of service could be needed - but if it works when it ends up in your hand, just keep using it until it really needs it!
After using my M2 for ~35 years (and used by someone else for 9-10 before that), it was making a slight squeak in the film wind. So I figured it was time for service. I used my local repair shop, and it came back smoother and quieter, with calibrated shutter speeds, and a brighter clearer viewfinder. Even before this amount of time and use, I'd expect any machine to need some service. Since then I've enjoyed the well-running machine another 8 years...
But I don't doubt there are unnecessary CLAs too. Most of this kind of work I've had done was the aforementioned crappy stuff from eBay. 😱
But I don't doubt there are unnecessary CLAs too. Most of this kind of work I've had done was the aforementioned crappy stuff from eBay. 😱
RFluhver
Well-known
Dante mentions an interesting point and kind of links it to my question in that other thread about repairers.
What the hell are we all going to do once these current crew of repairers will themselves start creaking and cannot be saved by any CLA, or worse, keel over?
So I asked is there some sort of apprenticeship programme - to replace the likes of DAG, Krauter, etc - outside of Leica so that we don't have to go to Leica's totally rip-off prices?
What the hell are we all going to do once these current crew of repairers will themselves start creaking and cannot be saved by any CLA, or worse, keel over?
So I asked is there some sort of apprenticeship programme - to replace the likes of DAG, Krauter, etc - outside of Leica so that we don't have to go to Leica's totally rip-off prices?
mooge
Well-known
It's not all that difficult to get a M2 to run. Mine worked fine with slide film, and my shutter tester consists of my eyeballs and a Canon F-1. And I replaced the shutter curtains myself too (kinda proud of that...), the curtain came from a Spotmatic. I'm dead sure it's out of spec, and it's not pretty. but it works, so I'm more than happy. Doing repairs is fun, but taking pictures is funner- I don't really like having my M2 in bits. so a full take-down and clean is not really worth it for me.
actually, apprenticing at Kindermann would be really cool... I'd probably make a lousy repairman though.
cheers.
actually, apprenticing at Kindermann would be really cool... I'd probably make a lousy repairman though.
cheers.
A little off topic, but I dropped by Kiitos Camera Repairs on the way home from work yesterday to buy some Nikon F parts. For those that don't know, Kiitos is probably the premier Nikon repair place in Japan. They specialise in the Nikon rangefinders and early SLRs, but also work on everything up to the current digital cameras. There's seven repair guys working there, and my guess is that all but one are over 60 years old (according to their website five are retired repair guys from Nikon). Makes me wonder what will happen to that incredible pool of knowledge once these guys start retiring permanently....
As for needless CLA's ... seems pretty common.
As for needless CLA's ... seems pretty common.
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Krzys
Well-known
I bought a M3 here, advertised as a recent CLA. Arrived with almost all shutter speeds faulty.
aizan
Veteran
wouldn't it be great to train to be a camera repairman at leica? sign me up.
maddoc
... likes film again.
My M4-P had one of these "CLA before selling" when I bought it. The vertical alignment was still off so I had sent it to Leica Japan for a quick fix. After inspecting the camera they told me that excessive oil had damaged some internals and a complete overhaul was strongly recommended. I paid ~ $750 for it, $500 for the overhaul (with warranty by Leica) and $ 250 for a new wind unit....😱
400 Euro for an overhaul seems to be a good approximate for an older M Leica when no parts have to be replaced.
400 Euro for an overhaul seems to be a good approximate for an older M Leica when no parts have to be replaced.
mooge
Well-known
very off topic, but 'kiitos' means 'thanks' in Finnish. 😉
Azian, your training starts here...
http://www.pentax-manuals.com/manuals/service/leica basic repair.pdf
...just remember not to break anything.
come on guys, if there's demand, someone will do it. so do your part and keep shootin'.
cheers.
Azian, your training starts here...
http://www.pentax-manuals.com/manuals/service/leica basic repair.pdf
...just remember not to break anything.
come on guys, if there's demand, someone will do it. so do your part and keep shootin'.
cheers.
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